Evasion - Not in Heavy/Medium Armor

[SBlack]

You are calling me out suggesting to your own personal benefit spewing propaganda that I'm personally attacking others. How is that not a personal attack on your part?

My intent is to stand up for personal playstyles and mind you, neither I nor my wife will directly be affected by any change to evasion. We just want to do the right thing and be sensitive to others playing by the rules. Again, to be clear nothing here affects me at all nor my wife, but we are good people and feel the need to stand up for others. Clearly your personal attacks are representative to a biased opinion and you should take a step back and advocate your position as a QC member. It would be a responsible thing to do since you can't seem to overcome your personal bias. IMO you are far too biased to be on the QC team or the DM team for that matter. If you have any integrity at all you'll resign as a QC member because clearly you are far too biased to pass on opinions that are in the best interest of the player base. .

t.

Fair enough Calodan, but logic doesn't go very far 'round these parts...
Take the time to search previous posts I've made over the years if you want to see my stance. This discussion was not started by me or anyone else in QC, but because other players want us to consider it. Contrary to what you may think, no matter WHAT we do we are going to alienate a portion of the player base because everyone wants different things. Not sure how my statement was flaunting anything other than calling out that personal attacks (which are against forum rules) are not really something that adds to the conversation.

Otherwise, thanks for the advice, but it's really an impossible bit to follow.

Thanks for the advice.

yet clearly you aren't going to do the right thing for the server since you enjoy the power that is afforded to you. It is clear you are far too biased to be a QC member or a DM, just do the respectable thing and resign if you have an integrity at all.

[Kagger911]

The video merely shows that you're far from being a turtle unable to move, these guys know what they're doing however they're far from being as agile as someone without an armor. Should I post some parkour video to prove that point ?

No worries, way ahead of you.

But sure, they arn't turtles. But that also means that people without armor have more mobility. Evasion on the other hand is not hindered as you can see from the rolls, jumps, cartwheels, and mounts.

[Vogar Eol]

What about...

....you get a reflex penalty of -5.

This is something new QC may find interesting to discuss. I imagine a temporary debuff to Reflex is much simpler than removing and re-adding a Feat.

Edit: And it could allow some degree of player choice to counter... if they want to source enough Reflex save gear.

[Theodore01]

If anyone needs evasion here (the way that server is set up) - it's a heavy armor using melee build. Dexers already have high reflex saves. And casters have their spells.

[Steve]

If anyone needs evasion here (the way that server is set up) - it's a heavy armor using melee build. Dexers already have high reflex saves. And casters have their spells.

Mithral Full Plate is 8/3, and medium weight armor.

Mithral Chain mail is 6/4, and light weight armor.

That equates to a -1 AC in reality, and a -1 Ability modifier in a builds' plan.

[Theodore01]

If anyone needs evasion here (the way that server is set up) - it's a heavy armor using melee build.

[Valefort]

Why ?

[AC81]

Chad put in nicely here:

For some, the thought of losing something powerful is a scary thing and makes them feel their build will no longer be viable, which is how some players of lower tier builds have always felt.

This sums it up, but I'll explain a little now that I'm calmer. Cooler heads prevail and all that.

I will still survive in most epic areas, but the additonal cost of healing kits/potion/consumables will significantly reduce any profits I make from looting.
Add to that the fact that I won't be able to solo certain bosses anymore, due to the evasion/expose combo not applying anymore.

Two areas which I regularly loot that I can see being affected are the Cloud Peaks and Greypeaks mountain areas. The fire giant sorcerers and frost giant mytics will be a lot nastier, and they're already nasty! The fire giant General and frost giant King will probably stomp me if these changes go in. Not so currently, though they are both good fights.

This affects my playstyle greatly! I often log on at odd hours where soloing is the only option, and others are not always available to group up even during high-population hours.

These proposed changes will reduce the number of chests and boss drops I can loot, while increasing the amount of time it takes me to kill opponents. They will also increases my use of consumables.

All of these factors will make lootrunning (something I love doing!) more time consuming and less profitable, after everything is accounted for. To the point where it may not be worth the time anymore, for me.

NWN2 has never had the light/no armor only rule implemented for evasion. This is in line with the game manual, and I believe was done intentionally to help out the armored melee archetypes. Opinions may differ, but that reasoning makes sense to me.

Hopefully this post explains where some of us are coming from. Especially those from the lower tier build archetypes. Apologies for getting heated earlier; people are trying to take away my candy. Sure, it may be cheap corn-sugar candy, but its all Ive got! Give us armored melee types a break

Don't mean to poke the bear or anything here Sputnik, but if you can solo those bosses then you're not really a low tier build. I imagine you steamroll through most of the server content if you can solo these two areas.
What exactly is your 'melee-type' build?

[ohboy007]

You could just play a caster...problem solved, give me money! Oh me and my obsessions...

That's probably what I'll do with the 100% RCR they give us IF they push this [expletive deleted] garbage through.
Either that or find another game.

I've seen some arguments on this forum stating that we should be more like PnP... from the same people who in other posts claim that this game ISN'T PnP and shouldn't be treated as such.
Make up your minds, please! Your bias is showing.

All of this because of an auto-hit bug! Which, I agree should be fixed.
Thing is, it STILL isn't fixed and those builds who will still be able to use expose weakness are still going to score auto-hits. What is the point of such a change if the very bug that caused all the hoopla cannot be fixed in the first place? It's [expletive deleted] laughable.

This will definitely impact my playstyle quite a bit. So much so, that as mentioned, I'll either be re-rolling or leaving.

I played way too long and worked way too hard on making a lowly non-magic melee build viable for epic content and bosses to have it taken away by some [expletive deleted] who conveniently get to keep their candy.

We should have just let this long-dead horse rot, and focused on bugs that are actually fixable, or content! Things like crafting would appease the playerbase instead of angering it with divisive (#2) reasoning.

Stop making so much (expletive) sense! It is true, sometimes some players are all PnP nazis, but then on other things they are like, "well, it is part of the NWN2 mechanics so what can you do?" I say you should always have a middle position. Some spells, like flight, have no chance of being incorporated into such an outdated game (a great outdated game, but outdated none the less). With things like that missing, it will be hard to replicate PnP. You have to kind of straddle both positions in a productive way. i would say you should error on the PnP side when it is feasible. When it is not, you have to improvise to keep the "spirit" of PnP.

It is kind of sad to see players who play your standard fighter types, and use very little magics, get another hit that would decrease their effectiveness. Average fighter types are not supposed to be OP as a FS or a Mage/Sorc, that is kind of their allure to many, but crippling them further is not wise IMO. FS will be OP no matter what, so this will only really hurt those players trying to play traditional character types. I do love the folks that play those kind of classes, it really brings the game experience down to earth, or should I say, down to Faerun.

[Vogar Eol]

Why would this "cripple them further"? Also, are they crippled now?

[aaron22]

Fighter based builds typically lag behind mage,cleric,lock based builds do. I would say rogue and fighter builds usually sit about the same in powerplay. But a pure or short dipped rogue is far better than I use fighter or dipped fighter based model. Yes.... fighters lag

[Steve]

Slightly off topic, but: melee (fighters) lag behind casters because of the Rest Timer, not because of ability/Feat power.

If you were to take a Caster and Melee and start them both off from a Rest, over time, the Caster's abilities depreciate—a Fighter's do not.

As it is now, for BGTSCC, Resting intervals are rather short—for convenience—and Areas in which to Rest, are plentiful—also for convenience.

But if that Caster couldn't Rest and/or was Mord'd or Dispelled before Rest-a-bility, then the Melee build would shine, shine, shine.

So power level is really in context...and the CRPG context is way skewed compared to a PnP context—this we all know. It is not, however, impossible to adjust the CRPG context to balance it out...

...problem is that Players do not want any inconvenience. I get that. Challenge can really frustrate people!!

[chad878262]

Slightly off topic, but: melee (fighters) lag behind casters because of the Rest Timer, not because of ability/Feat power.

If you were to take a Caster and Melee and start them both off from a Rest, over time, the Caster's abilities depreciate—a Fighter's do not.

As it is now, for BGTSCC, Resting intervals are rather short—for convenience—and Areas in which to Rest, are plentiful—also for convenience.

But if that Caster couldn't Rest and/or was Mord'd or Dispelled before Rest-a-bility, then the Melee build would shine, shine, shine.

So power level is really in context...and the CRPG context is way skewed compared to a PnP context—this we all know. It is not, however, impossible to adjust the CRPG context to balance it out...

...problem is that Players do not want any inconvenience. I get that. Challenge can really frustrate people!!

Partially true. Part of the discrepancy is that PnP generally doesn't do epic campaigns. While they're possible to run, my understanding is they're pretty rare. This is important because casters are fairly balanced with non-casters up to ~10, but then the pendulum quickly swings. Think about it, would a level 10 eldritch knight be better than a Fighter type? It won't have the slots to still spell everything and duration won't be as long.

Extending the rest timer wouldn't have that negative an impact. Even at level 17, my sneak-gish can go well over an hour if I forego the short/convenience buffs like haste.

[7threalm]

also caster wiz/cleric/bard get more spells to their spell books whenever we decide to add more spells... for free i might add

so even at 30 they still gain power, unlike the other classes

mabey we should offer more free combat style feats for fighters, types or the more pure classes to counter act it, or even let dm's give those styles with rp backing it up, a sword fighting school anyone?

just an idea

but with a d30 system working d20 system the devide is gonna be large, I think level 40 is alright for fighters, because they get a lot more tricks along way, once you pass the level 20 caster shine in a low magic world, without immunities and high eb weapons etc,

what we use to do in my old server was add spell seeds into the loot system for new spells being added so that wizards /clerics would have purchase these new spells, through a batering system set up by players. That way so they could feel the impact of gold on their charaters, because caster don't really cost that much money to play

[Akroma666]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep it as it is.