Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

AC81 wrote:FB/WM do just fine AND the only time a FvS has out-damaged me was against heavy DR where their divine damage sources shone through ... but isn't that kinda the point - every build has strengths/weaknesses, cooperation is the key. I love grouping with a mage or druid, and basically just getting let loose on the PvE world, sure I don't need the buffs but the numbers go big!

Draviir is a classic F14/FB5/WM7/WD4 split but I tweaked his stats to pump con, picked steadfast and lowered str a little. Just loaded the game up to look at his unbuffed stats with a shield and they are like this:

HP 476; AC 48; Fort 36; Reflex 32; Will 34
AB with IPA 45; Damage one-handed with IPA 1d6 + 1d4 + 31 = ~37 per hit x3 crit on 13-20. On full damage mode these numbers go pretty high, peaking at around 150-160 per crit and this guy was built with defence in mind. No favoured soul is beating that unless there is DR involved.

I can bump his AC by another 7 with IMA wand, Combat Expertise and a tower shield. He also has expose weakness if he needs help hitting or can use UMD for most other things (displacement, mirrors, etc). These things are, as Calodan said, easily capable of soloing 99% of the server. Easy. Also, as Calodan correctly says, while other builds are buffing for a fight, this guy is already amongst it, cutting things to pieces.

I didn't post these numbers to boast or anything, just to prove that ANY build, if built sensibly can comfortably navigate BG.

love playing with Draviir... my mage, or my melee all have fun to see his fighter type 2 hits everything

The key to Draviir's awesome numbers is the Gear—you can't get that great of Saves without great gear, for example.

Yeah, but let's assume you get a couple of +2 universal save items (common items)... You can still get in the low to mid 20's for Fort and Will which with Steadfast is plenty. The AC is easily replicated without AC81, Karond or M3ntalist gear now that there is an epic shop.

The issue, IMO is people not WANTING to invest in Will saves because it takes away from the ability to stack WM7 with FB5 and also get Evasion/EW. To me it is very similar to the spot vs. stealth conversation. Before the various changes a Fighter with no investment other than 33 skill points and an 8 (or 6!) WIS could spot just about any sneak on the server with a couple of wands and some easily acquired gear while a sneak had to invest every slot in to stealth, at the expense of AC, Saves, and any other potential benefits. Now it is more even, there is still spotters who can spot any sneak, but they actually need to put some investment in to it.

Same thing here, if you want good Will saves invest in getting good will saves. There are many ways to do it, but you may have to give up some damage to get there. You'll still be rocking far more damage than most in any case. It's up to the player if they want to roll with ~10 Will saves and max possible damage or reduce the damage to get Will saves over 20.

I don't have any grandfathered gear, never found any universal saves +3 items either, just +2. As I said, you can't get to AC81's numbers, but you can certainly still get saves that will work against epic bosses with appropriate, and fairly easy to acquire gear. You may have to carry 2 or even 3 types of amulet, rings, etc. (like I do on my STR Bard), but it is more about learning what type of protection you need in each area or against each boss and then applying gear as necessary, then using wands/potions/scrolls as necessary to supplement any weaknesses based on the gear set.

Yes, but most +3 Saves gear has ONLY +3 saves on it—are you going to give up a Natural Armor for Saves? So unless you're patient and have years to trade up, or even save up coin for the Epic Shop IN THE BLOODY OOC HELLZ DEPARTMENT STORE, no one should compare to AC81 and Big D...we can only marvel and appreciate!

+1 Chad.

For sure, my gear elevates the numbers a little. But if you don't take steps to shore up a builds weaknesses then you really can't complain as a player if the weaknesses are consistently exposed. For example, the weaknesses of my build when built typically include low will, low AC. Usually they have more Str, damage and AB than they need. So I dropped Str to 22, pumped con to 20, picked steadfast determination and use a shield often. I also grabbed feats like luck of heroes and armour skin.

As for these builds being hard for new players ... really? Get some armour, use a shield. Really not hard, very easy actually.

Edit: FB/WM builds are very good pve characters and great in groups. They are situationally good in pvp and are expensive vs bosses. Just the other week I got given a forced dirt nap by Israe, not sure I even hit her ...

Steve wrote:Yes, but most +3 Saves gear has ONLY +3 saves on it—are you going to give up a Natural Armor for Saves? So unless you're patient and have years to trade up, or even save up coin for the Epic Shop IN THE BLOODY OOC HELLZ DEPARTMENT STORE, no one should compare to AC81 and Big D...we can only marvel and appreciate!

No, but you could use a wand or scroll to get +4 Natural Armor when you know you need the +3 to saves. You could use IMA wand so you can wear armor with some other bonuses on it as well. Since now you have +6 to armor, maybe you can switch out your +4 deflection item for a +3 one that also gives +3 saves, or even +2/+2. So I will say again, there are things you can do with relatively common gear, you just have to be willing to use consumables (and smart about it! If you know you're going to eat a Mords start with one ward, after Mords use your get away button to move away so you can buff before engaging after the mords has been spent)

AC81 wrote:FB/WM do just fine AND the only time a FvS has out-damaged me was against heavy DR where their divine damage sources shone through ... but isn't that kinda the point - every build has strengths/weaknesses, cooperation is the key. I love grouping with a mage or druid, and basically just getting let loose on the PvE world, sure I don't need the buffs but the numbers go big!

Draviir is a classic F14/FB5/WM7/WD4 split but I tweaked his stats to pump con, picked steadfast and lowered str a little. Just loaded the game up to look at his unbuffed stats with a shield and they are like this:

HP 476; AC 48; Fort 36; Reflex 32; Will 34
AB with IPA 45; Damage one-handed with IPA 1d6 + 1d4 + 31 = ~37 per hit x3 crit on 13-20. On full damage mode these numbers go pretty high, peaking at around 150-160 per crit and this guy was built with defence in mind. No favoured soul is beating that unless there is DR involved.

I can bump his AC by another 7 with IMA wand, Combat Expertise and a tower shield. He also has expose weakness if he needs help hitting or can use UMD for most other things (displacement, mirrors, etc). These things are, as Calodan said, easily capable of soloing 99% of the server. Easy. Also, as Calodan correctly says, while other builds are buffing for a fight, this guy is already amongst it, cutting things to pieces.

I didn't post these numbers to boast or anything, just to prove that ANY build, if built sensibly can comfortably navigate BG.

+1 for this AC81. Maybe now they will believe me when I say a FB/WM does just fine. In fact BG is one of the few servers that still allows this PB combo......that should say everything about it.

chambordini wrote:Yeah, you have to understand, these builds are very gear dependent, it's funny when people tell new players wm/fb or pure ranger or some sneak works just fine in the server, those are being played 'just fine' with amazingly great gear from years of playing and trading, most of it stuff that isn't available to acquire except from a player already using it.

On the other hand a cleric or some bard, they don't need much.

Well you guys in QC could be pushing the DMs to loosen the items a bit in the chests and stop so much junk coming our way..........I mean really. When there are 2 PC players with that kind of gear and there is 1 way to get it there is a problem. If you don't like players telling new players this then fix it otherwise that point is stupid and should not be brought up time and again. These builds do work fine and will work fine for players without that gear as all of the DMs and QC have been so apt to argue whenever we the players ask for looser chest drops that do not give us junk time and again all the time..........

chambordini wrote:Yeah, you have to understand, these builds are very gear dependent, it's funny when people tell new players wm/fb or pure ranger or some sneak works just fine in the server, those are being played 'just fine' with amazingly great gear from years of playing and trading, most of it stuff that isn't available to acquire except from a player already using it.

On the other hand a cleric or some bard, they don't need much.

You can fully well get that kind of gear. Especially with the new epic merchants, getting it for a fair few builds is much easier.

Just like any MMO, you need to understand how to grind and you need to devote some time to it. That is what is meant, when this server is described as "mmo"ish. The grind is real, and it is necessary to get an edge.

All of my epic gear has come from this past half year of playing, after I figured that out.

chad878262 wrote:No, but you could use a wand or scroll to get +4 Natural Armor when you know you need the +3 to saves. You could use IMA wand so you can wear armor with some other bonuses on it as well. Since now you have +6 to armor, maybe you can switch out your +4 deflection item for a +3 one that also gives +3 saves, or even +2/+2. So I will say again, there are things you can do with relatively common gear, you just have to be willing to use consumables (and smart about it! If you know you're going to eat a Mords start with one ward, after Mords use your get away button to move away so you can buff before engaging after the mords has been spent)

Getting Dispelled overrides your point, Chad.

But there is one difference here, and that is of course the Elephant in the Room:

metaquad4 wrote:Just like any MMO, you need to understand how to grind and you need to devote some time to it. That is what is meant, when this server is described as "mmo"ish. The grind is real, and it is necessary to get an edge.

The highlight of BGTSCC—if I may be so bold—is that it is a Role-play First server. If it shows and is promoted and mostly discussed and all about What-the-Player-knows over What-the-PC-does-and-is, then I think BGTSCC needs to be redefined on the Masthead.

Steve wrote: The highlight of BGTSCC—if I may be so bold—is that it is a Role-play First server. If it shows and is promoted and mostly discussed and all about What-the-Player-knows over What-the-PC-does-and-is, then I think BGTSCC needs to be redefined on the Masthead.

BGTSCC has been defined over years of players playing on it. What it is can not be redefined without changing what it is mechanically to change that. I.E. making the mechanical aspects less prominent. This falls into things like how long it takes to level and the aspect of acquiring gear. The grind is real because former and current admin alike continue to keep the server in the niche it is in. Is that a bad thing? Not all of it no. Am I here for the mechanics? Some aspects of it. Some others frustrate me but the people here are worth it but you have to stick it out to develop those relationships. Do I agree with everyone? HELLZ NO! Will I still hang out and RP with those peeps if we had times that coincided? WHY FECK YEAH!

Just realize if you wish to make this server RP and STORY oriented then the mechanics have to be less of a thing that hinders you in everyday things. Leveling and gear acquirement are in my mind what drives the grind to be real and drive this server to MMO style rather than D&D cooperative play. The DMs and server admin need to consider that certain aspects and hallmarks of what BG is are what are making it seem like a MMO. The harder to level the more we have to grind it out and take years to do so. The harder to gear up the more we persist with our PCs for years never really moving on if and when we should because we never saw endgame gear for our PCs because humans want our shinies to be the shiniest before death......because when we finally get a good level 30 and the grind takes so long for other level 30s that we just stick to what BG has termed the MAIN PC. OMG do we even realize this is BG specific? No where else do players have a MAIN and ALTERNATE...

So in my mind unless you want to change WHAT BG is then we can not redefine it. It is what it is because of the way you and other head DMs and DMs have shaped it Steve be proud of that!

Steve wrote: The highlight of BGTSCC—if I may be so bold—is that it is a Role-play First server. If it shows and is promoted and mostly discussed and all about What-the-Player-knows over What-the-PC-does-and-is, then I think BGTSCC needs to be redefined on the Masthead.

To re-define (and possibly remake) BGTSCC on nwn2 is a rather large undertaking. You'd probably have an easier time finding a different game medium to plop this server into. However, I can offer a few suggestions:

--Remove gear acquisition from chests/loot, put it in the hands of crafting. That was done on DB, and does work to reduce the grind and the know-how required to loot-run. Such did not exist on DB.

However, you won't be able to remove the relevance to knowing how to play the game (or learn to play). In any game, even PnP, this was evident, prevalent, and important. If you don't know how to play the game, you will never do as good as someone who knows how to play the game. Your PC relies on its player's ability to play in order to perform, it doesn't have an AI.

--Remove XP grind. This can be achieved in two ways:
-Tone down xp so that gain is horribly slow. Watch the server empty like Cormyr, or AFLA. No one wants to be stuck at level 10 and below for months.

-Raise xp gain so that the grind is negligible. Less time spent grinding = more time spent RPing. If you don't feel like its your character's time to level, don't press the level up button. No one is forcing you to do so (if you liken yourself as a hardcore RPer who likes slow leveling, you'll be able to do this).

Also, if you want to lay emphasis on RP:
Remove the cap on RP xp. The cap on RP xp basically makes it so RPing is a completely nonviable way to level a character, which it shouldn't be on an RP server. One way to emphasis RP is to do as ToA/PoS did, and establish:

A "bonus pool" of xp. RP xp adds to this bonus pool, and xp gain is doubled from other sources for the duration. The double xp is taked from this bonus pool. All RP xp adds to your xp, and adds to this bonus pool as well. So:

Joe gains 50 RP xp. He gains 50 XP in his bonus pool. He kills an enemy that normally awards 25 XP and instead gains 50 XP. His bonus pool now lies at 25 XP, because of the bonus xp he gained.

A bonus pool basically makes it so that it becomes more profitable to RP while grinding, or RP before grinding. Then come back and RP before grinding again, since the double xp is just too good to pass up.

This idea will help, I think, with that issue Steve.

Regarding system abuse, since the BGTSCC community trouble with that:

There were no cases of system abuse on PoS/ToA of this mechanic. There was also no cases of people AFK just racking up XP with a macro (admin side of nwn2 also has ways to check XP gain. If someone gained an abnormal amount of xp within a day, they can be checked out). However, this community is a bit less mature than that one (the rules treat it like children, and it responds in kind).

Steve wrote:Getting Dispelled overrides your point, Chad.

But there is one difference here, and that is of course the Elephant in the Room:

I addressed dispel in my post. You don't need those wards for grinding, only for bosses. So if a boss has a dispel you drink a potion of bless (or whatever), eat the dispel, then use your boots of ethereal jaunt and you get 9 rounds to ward up. Not that difficult to just do for a boss fight.

calodan. i would like you to specify this if you can.

OMG do we even realize this is BG specific? No where else do players have a MAIN and ALTERNATE...

i have never played any rpg that i did not have a bunch of alts. when i played PnP, i had a bunch of PC's and would sometimes play 2 at a time. in MMORPG's i had as many alts as i could on multiple accounts. i cannot imagine a world where i would be totally devoted to playing only one character. if there was a rule that said i could only play one character, i would prolly restart so often my head would spin. be like when i play civilization. i dont think i have ever finished that game. i stop when i know i am gonna win.

aaron22 wrote:calodan. i would like you to specify this if you can.

OMG do we even realize this is BG specific? No where else do players have a MAIN and ALTERNATE...

i have never played any rpg that i did not have a bunch of alts. when i played PnP, i had a bunch of PC's and would sometimes play 2 at a time. in MMORPG's i had as many alts as i could on multiple accounts. i cannot imagine a world where i would be totally devoted to playing only one character. if there was a rule that said i could only play one character, i would prolly restart so often my head would spin. be like when i play civilization. i dont think i have ever finished that game. i stop when i know i am gonna win.

Players have one main for the most part here. Most games we have multiple PCs. However here they make a distinction of a MAIN PC. This is pretty much BG specific. Many guilds do not even want you in them if you are not going to be a MAIN ACTIVE.
(SHAMELESS PLUG HOV IS NOT THIS WAY! YOU CAN COME PLAY WITH A PC WHEN YOU FEELZ LIKE IT!)

So Guess the alternate part really confused it and was not really needed....my bad.