Thayans, Thay, and opinions !

[Young Werther]

What if a dude from Thay becomes a knight but he's really bluffing and not a Thayan Knight (still everyone believes him, they believe him exactly)? And then serves the red wizards and gets non-magical tattoos that look really cool? What then? ????? Profit.

[Tantive]

Honestly, what this server needs is more prcs that are tied to lore, with some sprinkles of prcs which are tied to a playstyle. This is flavor. In my opinion, a lore heavy class(any) should not be dumbed down or stripped for convenience.

What if a dude from Thay becomes a knight but he's really bluffing and not a Thayan Knight (still everyone believes him, they believe him exactly)? And then serves the red wizards and gets non-magical tattoos that look really cool? What then? ????? Profit.

Responding since you popped up on submit..

Thayan Knights are indoctrinated from a young age. That would leave quite a papertrail. A legitimate Red Wizard or Thayan Knight could easily enough ask for records back in Thay I suspect. By then the jig is up.

[Young Werther]

Thayan Knights are indoctrinated from a young age. That would leave quite a papertrail. A legitimate Red Wizard or Thayan Knight could easily enough ask for records back in Thay I suspect. By then the jig is up.

Ahhh.... so the back story requires a bit more finagling.

[Calodan]

Thayan Knights are indoctrinated from a young age. That would leave quite a papertrail. A legitimate Red Wizard or Thayan Knight could easily enough ask for records back in Thay I suspect. By then the jig is up.

Ahhh.... so the back story requires a bit more finagling.

Pretty much. Just writing up a lore appropriate backstory is all. This done correctly should show understanding of Thayan lore to properly RP the class so to speak. I mean it is really not that hard in my opinion but I have not been approved yet for the class and I did have help from another player in writing the back story. He provided the meat and potatoes. I just put the gravy on it really but I read the lore that was sent to me by JCVD1.

[AC81]

Tell me again how this class is weak mechanically? Especially considering it will almost always have a wizard companion with it. It is no better or worse than the majority of melee prc's (except DD but even they are racially limited) but it has also has very cool lore surrounding it. If I were to make a Thayan PC, I'd definitely use this class and I'd bet I could make several VERY powerful warriors who would be total wrecking balls with a high level Red Wizard behind them.

But anyway, mechanics aside, if the Thayan guild doesn't want their knights to take the Thayan Knight PrC, why make them. Just rebrand it and let the community have it. Who cares? Just don't say it's underpowered, because that isn't the case.

[Rask]

Thayan Knights are indoctrinated from a young age. That would leave quite a papertrail. A legitimate Red Wizard or Thayan Knight could easily enough ask for records back in Thay I suspect. By then the jig is up.

Ahhh.... so the back story requires a bit more finagling.

I challenge you to play that and infiltrate the Thayan Enclave. There is nothing stopping you. Might be fun for everyone involved. We've had knights go turncoat on us before. It's really rare, but it can happen. It also usually results in their death though once they are caught.

I honestly see no reason not to open the class up to everyone and let people create their own unique backstories involving Thay and being a former or Current knight of Thay not affiliated with the enclave in BG directly. I am biased though, as I believe that less restrictions in RP and what people can create is almost always a positive thing (With the exception of RDD. )

RP Restrictions due to arbitrary mechanics always stifle creative storytelling I think.

[Rask]

Tell me again how this class is weak mechanically? Especially considering it will almost always have a wizard companion with it. It is no better or worse than the majority of melee prc's (except DD but even they are racially limited) but it has also has very cool lore surrounding it. If I were to make a Thayan PC, I'd definitely use this class and I'd bet I could make several VERY powerful warriors who would be total wrecking balls with a high level Red Wizard behind them.

But anyway, mechanics aside, if the Thayan guild doesn't want their knights to take the Thayan Knight PrC, why make them. Just rebrand it and let the community have it. Who cares? Just don't say it's underpowered, because that isn't the case.

There is often not a wizard companion with it. And to make the class useful, it is either required to have a wizard present, or you must pidgeon-hole the build into specific things to make it work (And even then it doesn't work well.). AS pointed out earlier, taking 5 more levels of fighter, is almost always going to benefit you more than taking 5 levels of this PRC, due to fighter feat progression. This class is just underpowered on the server when put up against other PrC's here.

We wouldn't mind using the class if it was more useful, and actually more helpful to the RW when together. Right now it doesn't help the RW much who is with it, and usually the character is worse off for spending the 5 levels on it. It's been pointed out a few times by a few people on previous pages.

The fact is though, that the guild doesn't want this restriction and doesn't believe we should have it forced on us. Other than very recently, the guild has had a hard time keeping people active in it. Most of the characters in it are also people's Alt's so they dont even play that much other than a select few. The reason for this is usually the mechanical requirements forced on their characters and the lack of events centered on the guild.

As I stated before, we also used to be able to work around this by having some of the thayan guards as slaves, but we have not been able to do that for a while now.

[AC81]

There is often not a wizard companion with it. And to make the class useful, it is either required, or you must pidgeon-hole the build into specific things to make it work. AS pointed out earlier, taking 5 more levels of fighter, is almost always going to benefit you more than taking 5 levels of this PRC, due to fighter feat progression. This class is just underpowered on the server when put up against other PrC's here.

We wouldn't mind using the class if it was more useful, and actually more helpful to the RW when together. Right now it doesn't help the RW much who is with it, and usually the character is worse off for spending the 5 levels on it. It's been pointed out a few times by a few people on previous pages.

I understand you guys are SAYING it is considerably worse, but saying it and proving it are two different things. 5 MORE levels of fighter is a terrible option - consider F12/TK5/WoD10/R3. Are you really telling me that a F17/WoD10/R3 is better. Of course what I assume you mean is that whatever build I could make with Thayan Knight in it, you could do better without having TK. I'd say this is possibly true, but then is it MUCH better? One thing I've learned about almost exclusively playing fighters on this server is that they have a ceiling, no matter how well you build them, no matter what classes you include. Currently the best ones beat everything except for the Balor and the White (maybe they can't beat the pit fiend either but I don't play in the UD so I wouldn't know) to beat bosses consistently they all need to use a lot of UMD and the combat sequence usually goes like this: Dispel, Ethereal, Buff, Expose Weakness, Bash, Expose ... etc. Where I'm going with this is here: My TK build and your non-TK build will still accomplish the same things, yours will make it look easier possibly, possibly not. Mine will have an awesome backstory that is relevant to the TG and I'll probably have a wizard in tow. When I don't have a wizard companion, I'll still plow through PvE just like you (because that's what ALL fighters can do on this server), it's just that we'll both have to stay away from tougher bosses. I don't think either build type will have an advantage over the other in PvP (if you remain true to the 'no gish' rule) in fact I may be able to convince other parties to back down from PvP (thus winning) due to my high intimidate score (not reliable though, as you can't enforce die rolls without a DM). But if PvP does occur, we probably both should be toast because at the end of the day we're both just fighters.
So, could you make a better non-TK build? Yeah, probably. Is it going to be WAY better? No, definitely not.
That's the mechanics. As for the RP aspect, I don't really care what the Thayans do as long as it doesn't affect other players immersion - and in my humble opinion, having a player make a Thayan Knight without picking the Thayan Knight prc will have zero impact on anyone else. Why should they be forced to take it if other guilds don't have such strict requirements.
Like I said, if I played one and didn't take the class, I'd see it as a missed opportunity, but whatever, it should be up to the guild leaders and members.
Also, apologies if my post comes across as negative or patronising, that is definitely not the intention, just giving my opinion. I think we need the big focal guilds like the Thayans and Zhents very active, it only adds to the atmosphere in game.

[Maecius]

We've asked the DMs to play storytellers and referees for the server, and they came to a group decision on this.

We did discuss altering the Thayan Knight class -- but QC felt it was already powerful as is and the DMs felt that to alter it would damage the lore behind it. We already made one lore-breaking concession (allowing them to weapon focus in any weapon, not just longswords), and to continue to alter the class away from its core class description would simply make it into something else.

The only viable alternative would be to get rid of the class entirely. But I'd hate to punish the majority of Thayan Knights just because a couple people want to play a Thayan Knight without the Thayan Knight PRC or application process. So I would want the general consensus of the entire Thayan Knight community to say "yeah, let's kill this class" before I was comfortable discussing the possibility of removing the class from the module. It's a really unique class, and I'd hate to see it go. But I'd not be opposed to discussing that possibility if none of the Thayan Knights or would-be Thayan Knights want to play it. Just be aware that a group/guild request of this sort would essentially be removing this PRC from play for everyone who, in the future, might want to play a Thayan Knight as well -- and would there be robbing the guild of something that's pretty unique to it.

If that's the route you want to think about taking, though, I'd suggest discussing it in your private forums and coming to a consensus on it. Because we wouldn't be replacing it with something different or better. It would just go away, and everyone with TK levels right now would need to reroll their characters into non-application/vanilla melee builds.

If that's not the route the group wants to take, then those who want to play a Thayan Knight without the Thayan Knight class will either have to be a non-Thayan Knight Thayan soldier -- or figure out how to incorporate the class into their build.

We're for sure not empowering the class though, so please don't hold out on that as a possibility here. Neither QC nor the DMs are for it, and we don't really make it a habit of making things stronger just because the people who play that thing want it to be stronger.

[Rask]

There is often not a wizard companion with it. And to make the class useful, it is either required, or you must pidgeon-hole the build into specific things to make it work. AS pointed out earlier, taking 5 more levels of fighter, is almost always going to benefit you more than taking 5 levels of this PRC, due to fighter feat progression. This class is just underpowered on the server when put up against other PrC's here.

We wouldn't mind using the class if it was more useful, and actually more helpful to the RW when together. Right now it doesn't help the RW much who is with it, and usually the character is worse off for spending the 5 levels on it. It's been pointed out a few times by a few people on previous pages.

I understand you guys are SAYING it is considerably worse, but saying it and proving it are two different things. 5 MORE levels of fighter is a terrible option - consider F12/TK5/WoD10/R3. Are you really telling me that a F17/WoD10/R3 is better. Of course what I assume you mean is that whatever build I could make with Thayan Knight in it, you could do better without having TK. I'd say this is possibly true, but then is it MUCH better? One thing I've learned about almost exclusively playing fighters on this server is that they have a ceiling, no matter how well you build them, no matter what classes you include. Currently the best ones beat everything except for the Balor and the White (maybe they can't beat the pit fiend either but I don't play in the UD so I wouldn't know) to beat bosses consistently they all need to use a lot of UMD and the combat sequence usually goes like this: Dispel, Ethereal, Buff, Expose Weakness, Bash, Expose ... etc. Where I'm going with this is here: My TK build and your non-TK build will still accomplish the same things, yours will make it look easier possibly, possibly not. Mine will have an awesome backstory that is relevant to the TG and I'll probably have a wizard in tow. When I don't have a wizard companion, I'll still plow through PvE just like you (because that's what ALL fighters can do on this server), it's just that we'll both have to stay away from tougher bosses. I don't think either build type will have an advantage over the other in PvP (if you remain true to the 'no gish' rule) in fact I may be able to convince other parties to back down from PvP (thus winning) due to my high intimidate score (not reliable though, as you can't enforce die rolls without a DM). But if PvP does occur, we probably both should be toast because at the end of the day we're both just fighters.
So, could you make a better non-TK build? Yeah, probably. Is it going to be WAY better? No, definitely not.
That's the mechanics. As for the RP aspect, I don't really care what the Thayans do as long as it doesn't affect other players immersion - and in my humble opinion, having a player make a Thayan Knight without picking the Thayan Knight prc will have zero impact on anyone else. Why should they be forced to take it if other guilds don't have such strict requirements.
Like I said, if I played one and didn't take the class, I'd see it as a missed opportunity, but whatever, it should be up to the guild leaders and members.
Also, apologies if my post comes across as negative or patronising, that is definitely not the intention, just giving my opinion. I think we need the big focal guilds like the Thayans and Zhents very active, it only adds to the atmosphere in game.

About the first part:
And you don't see this part as a problem?


And as for the other part: That is actually the jist of our entire point here. Is it will literally effect nobody else's RP at all by removing the restriction. And if one WANTS to play that class, they can and I believe they should be recognized as being maybe a bit higher-born or more respected RP wise for doing so (Like we have done in the past.).

Basically it boils down to, can we retool this class to be more useful, or can we remove the requirement?

[AC81]

The same can be said for so many prcs/classes in so many different situations. I did go on to state that it really doesn't matter in the long run. I could easily change a F14/WD4/WM7/FB5 into a F14/WD4/WM7/TK5 and all I lose is supreme cleave and 4 damage when one-handed power attacking. I gain a lot defensively - full spellcraft, better saves, no need to pick cleave/great cleave (although I need Iron Will), two extra feats (so three more in total), guarding the lord, access to an awesome guild, huge intimidate score. I say it only loses 4 damage, because for most epic content fighters need their shield. So yeah, the TK will kill slower, but it'll be effective. Throw in the Red Wizard in the background and I'd say good luck to anything in their way.
But yeah, it isn't optimised compared to a DD, but then again we don't make a habit of buffing classes by comparing then to powerbuilds.

EDIT: I think the requirement should be removed personally, the class is fine mechanically.

[Asmodea]

Perhaps the RWs can just make a decision that the Thayan Enclave no longer uses or recognizes Thayan Knights due to its distance from Thay and heavy use of mercenaries? Make up a new name like Thayan Enforcers or something for -all- martial forces of the Enclave until the time they as a guild decide to once more recognize or use Thayan Knight as a title or position of authority.

It basically would just be killing off the PrC Playerside by a name shift that people may or may not bother to follow IC.

EDIT: Maybe just have all Thayan Knights without the class technically 'Squires' but generally called Thayan Knights unless something specifically comes up where the RP prestige or such comes up (Which honestly I think will be almost never).

[Stonebar]

You don't need to be a slave to Guard an enclave. Freemen would work as well, possibly more likely given the local laws. That and freemen are less likely to escape. Would an enclave really be made up of only Knights and Red wizard in a place the size of Baldur's gate?

A typical enclave holds a number of Thayans equal to 1% of the settlement's population. Guards and other support staff for the wizards, including servants, assistants, and mundane artisans, make up at least half of the enclave population. The remainder are wizards of various levels (some with levels in the Red Wizard prestige class.) The highest-level wizard is the leader of the enclave, and always has at least one level in the Red Wizard prestige class.

This is in Thay but an idea.

For example, in a typical Thayan garrison, the captain is minor landed Mulan noble, his officers are landless Mulan nobles, and his sergeants are Rashemi veterans. The troops, of course, are mostly Rashemi.

[DM Dialectic]

Updated 4/2/2017

Thayan Knights
The Thayan Knight is effectively a lesser noble of Thay in canon Forgotten Realms and server lore. Therefore, we require Thayan Knight levels for it as a PRC class under the normal 3b20 rule and that players wanting to take the class and RP template apply to the DM Team for the class by sending in an application request to the DM Team given the combination of intense lore knowledge involved in the class and beginning RP status as a lesser noble of Thay. Players are on the other hand welcome to be Thayan warriors (non-noble) not including the Thayan Knight class and not requiring an application to the DM Team for the Thayan Knight class. Further, while Thayan Knights are required to be human and swear allegiance to the Red Wizards of Thay, for a common Thayan warrior this is not the case.

The public ruling (viewtopic.php?f=7&p=728619#p728619) on Thayan Knights posted yesterday was made since while this has been internal DM policy for really years (Thayan Knights, and Red Wizards as well, have been an application only class since at least 2011: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16504), there clearly is public confusion on the topic, so we wanted to make our longstanding DM position clear. So, we thought it would be helpful to clarify publicly with a ruling what we had been enforcing and viewing as DM policy for a long time now regarding the Thayan Knight class as a DM Team.

Irrelevant to this public ruling, you can still be (and always could be on our server) a Thayan soldier, mercenary, warrior, etc. from Thay, but these are not Thayan Knights. They are not effectively Thayan lesser nobles in fealty service to the Red Wizards and battle commanders of commoner Thayan troops as Thayan Knights in fact are.

I actually was under the understanding you could currently play a Thayan Knight not associated with the Enclave you just needed DM approval. The name change would simply be if the DMs do not want to give whatever supposed implied or 'forced' background power comes with the title out to everyone.

If a DM can clear this up, that would be great. I always thought that you needed to be part of the guild to apply for the class. If that is not true then continue this discussion and try to solve the guilds problems. Just dont change the PRC. TK is what people want to play, not Thayan warriors or agents...

If you send in an application for the Thayan Knight or Red Wizard classes that is approved by the DM Team in fitting with Thayan lore, you absolutely can have either class on a character in fitting with lore and not have to join the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave guild. Effectively, this would mean that you are not in the service of Red Wizards of the School of Transmutation (who run and control the Thayan Enclaves initiative world wide via their Guild of Foreign Trade headed by Master of the Guild Samas Kul of the School of Transmutation who reports to the Zulkir of Transmutation) and the Zulkir of Transmutation, Druxus Rhym.

You would instead need to be located at some point on the hierarchy below one of the other magical Schools of Thay and have a valid lore and RP reason as such to be so far west as a Thayan Knight or Red Wizard and not be involved in operating an Enclave under the School of Transmutation. Further, not being in the hierarchy of the School of Transmutation, your character would have no political power whatsoever over any Thayan in any of the Thayan Enclaves (or the Enclaves themselves) as they are all in the School of Transmutation and trying to "pull rank" on them would likely not be productive IC as such with your character not even being in the same School as the Enclaves (Transmutation).

For example, in the past, the DM Team has approved Red Wizard applications (and Thayan Knight applications would be no different) for Red Wizards in the service of the Thayan Schools of Abjuration and Enchantment, respectively. These Thayan characters then operated entirely outside of the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave (and guild) as a result IC. The trade off is of course that they could utilize not an ounce of power of the Enclaves (unless granted by the effectively School of Transmutation Guild of Foreign Trade or its appointed Enclave leadership) since these are outside of their schools. The School of Transmutation and the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave under it (and therefore the Thayan Enclave guild) are the largest power center of Thay in our server setting (plug for the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave guild: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3163).

Just a small detour; I'm actually somewhat surprised by the new ruling and the allowance of 'lesser nobles'. In the past, coming from a noble background has always been conditionally approved (by DM only) on the basis it is not a current and active bloodline. For example; lesser nobles that have required their family be slain, or stripped of their titles. The belief was that active 'noble connections' would give an unfair advantage and/or cause players to lord over one another.

Thayan Knights are effectively lesser nobles by office in Forgotten Realms canon lore and they always have been in our server lore in the eyes of the DM Team as well, we just had not previously stated so publicly. Of course, the human race of Thayan Knights can also affect how they are treated by fellow Thayans (Mulan>all) regardless of their effective lesser noble office. Further, Red Wizards in our server lore are generally going to be Thayan nobility (lesser-middle nobility at least), not by office, but by human race, if involved with the Thayan Enclave. This is because the DM Team interprets it to be highly likely that any Red Wizards in our server's part of Faerun associated with the School of Transmutation and the Thayan Enclaves in the west are Mulan noble humans of Thay due to the assignment being prestigious in the School of Transmutation and what would therefore likely be involved in terms of being assigned there as a Red Wizard. As an aside, to quote Unapproachable East for some more Thayan racial context:

Almost all nobles in Thay are of Mulan descent, although
not all Mulan are nobles. At worst, lowborn Mulan are free
farmers or artisans, although many seek power that does not
depend on their family’s wealth, becoming bureaucrats, soldiers,
or priests. For those with the aptitude, the path of the
Red Wizard lies open. In fact, most Red Wizards come from
Mulan families of relatively humble means (although highborn
Red Wizards have the advantage of personal wealth and
noble alliances to aid their advancement when they complete
their training). (Page 158)

The reason the DM Team allows this versus our other general noble title criteria otherwise is that Thay is so far away from our server polities that there is not really an inherent power advantage from nobility as such unless you get to a point IC where say the current Kharzark of the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave is at, but that took years of RP and requesting a formal DM recognized noble title that reflects in our server area as something even the local polity, Baldur's Gate, recognizes as significant. The DM Team views this as dramatically different from say a noble status of Tethyr, Cormyr, Waterdeep, Amn, Baldur's Gate, Darkhold, Elturel, etc. or any other polity far closer than Thay as these polities closer would give a noble status that would have unfair and out-sized influence for a brand new character given far closer geographic proximity than Thay.

As the only two classes where at-rolling accession to nobility is possible in our server, the Red Wizard and Thayan Knight do require applications for this reason and also to prevent high risks of severely damaging lore mistakes such as someone rolling a Red Wizard or Thayan Knight and sincerely RPing being from Waterdeep or Neverwinter and ethnically Chondathan and following Ilmater.

[Rhifox]

Further, not being in the hierarchy of the School of Transmutation, your character would have no political power whatsoever over any Thayan in any of the Thayan Enclaves (or the Enclaves themselves) as they are all in the School of Transmutation and trying to "pull rank" on them would likely not be productive IC as such with your character not even being in the same School as the Enclaves (Transmutation).

What?

Just because Samas Kul reports to the Zulkir of Transmutation, does not make the Guild of Foreign Trade a Transmutation entity. It is a government-sponsored organization, every school has a stake in it (several zulkirs are on its directing board). Yes, Kul is a Transmutationist and the first Enclaves are all largely paid for out of Rhym's pocket (though Rhym being Zulkir already is a BGTSCC-specific thing, by lore Maligor is the Zulkir of Transmutation until 1362), but it's a misnomer to say that RWs in the service of other schools don't also work for it (especially considering all of the non-Transmutationists in BG's Enclave).

Several of the zulkirs are counted as members of the guild's directing board, although in practice they leave Samas Kul to administer the operation while collecting bribes and payoffs of staggering amounts for their forbearance and continued good will. In theory the Guild of Foreign Trade passes on all profits to the state, but in practice the state receives much less than the zulkirs (or other highly placed Red Wizards) who happen to have their hands in the till.

Many lesser Red Wizards are nominally employed in the guild, answering to Samas Kul while they direct the revenues generated through their work back to the zulkirs who sponsored them.

It's better to say that if your character is outside of the Enclave system/Guild of Foreign Trade, then you have no political power over Enclave/Guild members. Not that every RW Enclave member is part of Transmutation and RWs of other schools aren't.