Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[Steve]

This was my Barb 20 / Dervish 10 whirlwind rage AC:

Base 20 + 2 (Cat's Grace UMD) + 6 (mithral chain mail w/ BGTSCC custom change) + 4 armor ench. + 4 DEF + 8 (epic Natural Ice Troll Berzerker) +4 dodge boots + 5 dodge (epic whirlwind frenzy) +2 Barbarian lvl 20 BG custom bonus -2 rage AC = 53 (46 when not raging; +4 Shield spell + 2 Imp. Mage Armor wand = 59)

The Rage duration was 90 sec per pop, with a total of 12 minutes Rage per rest at lvl 30.

[Valefort]

There's no AC penalty for whirlwind rage.

[Sun Wukong]

We're speaking of +5 rounds when you're at epic rage, how is that "far longer raging" ? That's one extend rage feat, one.

We have talked about this in the past, you just multiply the number of rages you get with the duration. If you get 8 uses of Rage, and go for the same amount of Extend Rage Feats, that +5 rounds you mentioned adds up to 40 rounds. It is over six minutes, quite near to 7 minutes. If you skip one Extend Rage feat, well you get to spend it on something else.

Massive saves boost ? You'll get +5 fort and +5 will while the whirlwind frenzy gives you +5 reflex. Now tell me, which of these 3 saves is the lowest for any barbarian with steadfast determination ... ? Reflex.

You forget that Epic Rage gives you +8 to Will Saves. Thus you get a total of +13 to your will saves, now add these numbers with that Divine Champion build I mentioned on page one. Moreover, you can buy a Shimmering cloak for 32 Spell Resistance, which means that most mobs on the server become somewhat reluctant to spam their Reflex save based spells. Also, you will not be missing that +1 Regeneration from cloak, as you get +2 from your Rage, and who knows what else from your weapon. Thus the only place where reflex saves come into play... are well, traps on chests, and few actually go opening chests while there are mobs still around.

So it's true you'll get a bonus to those saves and good thing for you, they were sky high already, feel free to get that cherry on top but please stop making it out to be the Graal and the thing to get when in Rage while it's not even a problem to begin with.

As for my saves being high on my High Strength Whirlwind Frenzy build, not really, those would be much higher with Standard Rage. The Whirlwind Frenzy does buff up my reflex save, but as mentioned earlier, it is not really an issue.

And 50 AC destroyed by frost giants ? The melee ones hardly have the AB to hit you except on a 20.

Well the funny thing is that sometimes your rage just ends prematurely. You know, you have Extend Rage IV and it ends before you have even cleared the default timer. Also, playing a halfling here, so it doesn't really matter that I have 37 strength because giants get +8 on their knockdown attempts against me... Also, had bunch of Mystics spamming Improved Invisibility and you just need to be unlucky with rolls... Not to mention that Expose Weakness cheese is another thing I refuse to exploit... You know, that death is not really result of any rocket science.

Would have been such an easy fight with my old Wisdom based Spirit Shaman...

anyone else find it amusing that not long ago there was a whole thread about how a Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarian could exceed 70 AC and now we are talking about the difficulties of exceeding 50? (By the way, first world problem is when you 'only' get to 54 AC while also being a great damage dealer with solid saving throws and DR)...

Over the years I have repeated one specific thing. If the server is too easy for you, then you need to go play as a less optimised build. This is what I have always done. As for first world problems... Great damage dealer? Sure. Solid saving throws? Only my fortitude is above 20. DR? I got about 5/-.

So you know what is going on here, you have taken issue with some build and you are willing to damn everything else just so that you can nerf down that AC of 70 to... 66?

Anyhow... that 70 AC? Let us see...

10 (Base)
+8 (Fullplate)
+3 (Dexterity from Mithral Full Plate)
+4 (Tower Shield, -2 Attack Bonus)
+6 (Improved Mage Armor Wand, easily dispelled.)
+4 (Shield Wand, easily dispelled)
+3 (Tumble)
+6 (Improved Combat Expertise, -6 Attack Bonus)
+8 (Ice-Troll Berserker Natural Armor with Epic Rage)
+5 (Dodge from Epic Whirlwind Frenzy.)
+4 (Deflection Ring/Belt/Helmet)
+4 (Dodge Boots)
+1 (Luck of Heroes)
+1 (Armor Skin)
+2 (Barbarian 20)
+4 (Dodge AC against Giants)
+2 (Battlerager Natural Armor)
= 75

*Ahem.* A correction, you are willing to damn everything else just so that you can nerf down AC of 75 to 71. (Oh, and just so you know, I wouldn't stick with Whirlwind Frenzy for that +1 AC I mentioned before, I would go for the buffed up Standard Rage, because more damage per hit, higher saves where they really matter, longer duration, and that extra regeneration is a whole lot more decent trade off than +1 AC. Or even +5 AC to be honest, I mean, not a lot of things have enough AB that it will make any difference between 70 or 75 AC.


Anyhow, go do your change, just be kind enough to offer that full RCR so I can go for a new character altogether. Edit: Perhaps I should recreate my old Barbarian 21/Fighter 4/Battlerager 5.

[Steve]

There's no AC penalty for whirlwind rage.

Ha! Didn't realize that.

So then, for one type of Build, we have:

Base 20 + 2 (Cat's Grace UMD) + 6 (mithral chain mail w/ BGTSCC custom change) + 4 armor ench. + 4 DEF + 8 (epic Natural Ice Troll Berzerker) +4 dodge boots + 5 Shield enhancement (epic whirlwind frenzy) +2 Barbarian lvl 20 BG custom bonus = 55 (46 when not raging; + 2 Imp. Mage Armor wand = 57)

A Standard Rager, and lets forgo Dervish, would probably get 49 AC, but need to sword & board it. So those new Standard Rage perks do go far, towards equaling out the two possibilities.

[Sun Wukong]

Steve, please, go look at my previous post. Because in one way or another, I do not think you have understood all the possibilities.

[chad878262]

Comments Only, I didn't propose the changes, but I do endorse them... Regardless, you tend to make a lot of points about your build and how the impacts effect you while also stating that you purposely nerf yourself within your build. QC has always and will always discuss balance based on what is possible, optimization is what DM's deal with in events and is what the server is balanced around. If you know you are building a PC specifically that is not as good as it could be, you can't really complain when said PC struggles....Isn't that why you built the PC that way?

Regardless, we didn't take any issue with a particular build, we simply are looking to align the two types of rage. WW Frenzy getting the extra attack is always going to make it a contender, in any case, but these changes certainly make standard rage attractive to some.

[Steve]

Steve, please, go look at my previous post. Because in one way or another, I do not think you have understood all the possibilities.

I see your possibility from your build, and like I said earlier, the changes seem done to counter 1-2 builds which get 60+ AC. Aren't there a number of OTHER BUILDS that, if you min/max for it, can also get 60+ AC?

Many, many, many Builds just don't need 60+ AC because they have undispellable Mirror Images +/- Displacement, or are fitted with other exceptional solutions for defense.

I have no problem with any changes, as long as there is openness about what the Standard is that "balancing" is made to fit. Is the Standard 54 AC? 55 AC?

My interpretation was that, if a Build has a limited use, then a higher score makes sense, where a less-limited use or better duration of power gets a lesser score. That is the fun and the risk, when choosing to build for either flashy power or durational power.

Whether it matters or not, the Whirlwind Frenzy Rage changes can be employed either well or poorly, and/but the changes to Standard Rage seem better than I would expect to see.

But then again, I was surprised by the initial/overall Barbarian class upgrades, because they put Barbarian much higher in many respects to than other base Classes.

In a way.

[Valefort]

There was a misunderstanding on the AC type for whirlwind frenzy so the changes are being re-reviewed.

[Sun Wukong]

If you know you are building a PC specifically that is not as good as it could be, you can't really complain when said PC struggles....Isn't that why you built the PC that way?

It is one thing for me to decide what flaws I will have, and it is another when others introduce additional flaws out of the blue. You see, every player here has his own comfort zone, someone might refuse to play anything else than a caster for an example, and the suggested Whirlwind Frenzy changes in this thread will knock things way out of my 'comfort zone' - in other words - you are forcing me to grind much more than I am willing. It doesn't matter if it is for UMD consumables, rare and very expensive +4 equipment, or just start again at level 20 to trod through the dull and monotonous Epic level grind yet, and yet again.

The beauty of the current Whirlwind Frenzy is that it simply reduces the need to grind. You can do fine with just '+3 equipment' and less than optimal build as I have. You are not forced to be a caster, or go for any specific power build, because Barbarian 20 and whatever else 10 works well enough already.

Regardless, we didn't take any issue with a particular build, we simply are looking to align the two types of rage. WW Frenzy getting the extra attack is always going to make it a contender, in any case, but these changes certainly make standard rage attractive to some.

This BGTSCC, there is always someone who is butthurt over some build. Anyhow, the extra attack being a contender here is frankly just a load of nonsense. Your character crafts wands, you can sell both wands and Master Alchemist potions of haste. Not to mention how the extra 'Haste attack' can be acquired through feats and other PRCs alike, you know the Epic feat and how Duelist/Frenzied Berserker also get it.

Heck, you could remove the extra Haste attack from Whirlwind Frenzy and I wouldn't complain about that. The extra attack is just largely meaningless to my build and you I could easily acquire it through other means. But do remove the AB penalty too if you do go that route.

As for making standard rage more attractive some, the actually Barbarian players on this very thread have said how they would rather have the new standard rage instead. Not to mention that the issue with Standard Rage is that for a very long time, you were required to get 27 or 30 strength to qualify for Epic Rage - and thus it was not a real option for the 21+ constitution Barbarians beyond that odd minmaxed Earth Genasi. Things have changed, we have more constitution feats, and you could make a real high HP tank.

[Sun Wukong]

There was a misunderstanding on the AC type for whirlwind frenzy so the changes are being re-reviewed.

Drop the extra attack and AB penalty, not the AC. I would say it is the better way to 'balance' the two rage types.

[chad878262]

I thought UMD was worthless?

[dzidek1983]

Barbarians nad UMD... hell...

[Sun Wukong]

I thought UMD was worthless?

It is largely to me, but if others want to spend their coin, they can.

As for whoever would rather want to keep the extra attack, may I suggest a third rage variant? You know, if you need to balance two things, it is always going to be lopsided in favour of one or the other. But if you introduce a third thing, different enough things can be offered, and thus it is not a matter of one or the another.

You can call it whatever, but how about:

Furious Assault



Requirement: Barbarian 1

This is am optional feat given to barbarians at level 1. It replaces the normal rage bonuses. When using Rage, the barbarian gains +4 STR, +2 Fortitude saves, -2 Attack Bonus penalty, and an additional attack at the highest AB (does not stack with haste). These bonuses increase to +6 STR, +3 Fortitude, -1 Attack Bonus penalty at level 11, +8 STR, +4 Fortitude, no Attack Bonus penalty at level 20 and +10 STR, +5 Fortitude, +1 Attack Bonus with Epic Rage. The barbarian does not get Indomitable Will at level 14. The amount of barbarian rage uses remain the same as the normal version.

And if Whirlwind Frenzy does not feel like 'whirlwindy' enough, I suppose no one would oppose a movement speed increse of 5%, 10%, 15% and 20%. (Doesn't stack with haste.)


Edit: And then you just prepare the right feat codes for the DMs, so that they can just remove and add the right rage variant feat.

[Glowfire]

Could the Underdark maps get blue transition markers with the nearby map name on them? You know, like every other areas on the server..?


Upperdark got it. I'm a little bit tired (okay, a lot) of always pulling up an Underdark map on the side to check. I figure someone in the past thought this would make UD more 'real' and 'hard' but while my character would know the Underdark like the back of his hand, I the player have other things that my allocated brain memory is used for... (plus my RL orientation skills are super bad).

[7threalm]

and let the surfacers know all our secrets, heresy