Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

metaquad4 wrote:Here is an issue with that ...

You raise valid issues!

In light of those points - what if it were not the Paladin class itself that were restricted to application process, but rather a player would apply to have the Detect Evil feature attached to their existing Paladin?

No application is needed. Detect evil should be available for paladins.

Yeah, why not. It makes sense with lore. Paladins can't go around murdering people who are detected to be evil if they haven't actually provably been doing evil stuff anyways. So why not.

I agree, I think it would be a good addition for paladins. No need for applications.

It's not like it'd detect anything other than neutral most of the time. Folks are safe.

Add the spell Undetectable Alignment as well, as I already stated, and this has my full support (not that it means anything!).

Tsidkenu wrote:Add the spell Undetectable Alignment as well, as I already stated, and this has my full support (not that it means anything!).

+1

Personally, I don't see the point.

We already have Drow or 'totally-not-Drow-because-my-skin-is-covered' on the surface and the people freely consorting with them, people failing to engage the Banites or other Evil-aligned religions they supposedly stand against and other openly 'Evil-aligned' acts, like people admitting they are (hired) killers, that freely go about their business, or that have a demon/devil following them around.

If there's very little actions against the 'open' kinds of 'Evil', then why bother asking for an alignment detection system? So we have have people cast spells at eachother constantly, like that annoying guy spamming the Light spell (you've all met one)? I feel like there could be more effort towards the conversational side of finding Evil-aligned people, rather than just having less roleplay and more mechanics that have to be carefully tested, governed, and hoped for that they won't be misused.

Finding out and struggling against Evil-aligned people can make for some excellent roleplaying, so why exchange that for a spell just because it's in PnP? Though that's all just from my perspective playing here, I could well be mistaken.

Well, it WILL kill off RP and it will make certain kinds of RP (finding out if people are evil) require less effort (killing more types of investigation RP). This is one of those class features that actually works to remove RP in a persistent world environment. So, those are good points there.

We could add it in and have it lead to some funny scenarios too. Like watching a neutral character do some evil acts. . .

"Nah, don't worry. He isn't evil! I know. . .I can smell it!" (Yes. I expect this will happen. And my expectations likely will become reality, knowing a fair few people on the server.)

inb4 The Coven of Light appears.

"He is evil, lets go for him!"
"We can't go after that one, it hasn't been 24 hours yet."

It's kinda interesting to actually LOOK at how Detect Evil works:

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round
Presence or absence of evil.

2nd Round
Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.

If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.

3rd Round
The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.

And more stuff....

There is actually reason to NOT utilize Detect Evil, cause...wait for it...it has consequences!!!

I will also really, really, really stress, nay POINT OUT, Detect Evil does not deliver the caster a "report card" on Evil.

And, I would add, if BGTSCC customized the Feat so that it did not detect Exact Location of Source, just presence, one would nip in the bud the issue of Pally's walking up to every John, (person) and Jane and saying "You evil bad."

Wall of text

This ability will 100% stop evil characters from joining in on DM events.

Just prophesying here.

I'd be wary rolling of ever evil, if the paladins get their way, and get detect evil, you will be alienated. Just a matter of time until your wards run out, you go afk, they see you rest, etcetera. Players will even walk up to you and demand you dismiss your wards for them to properly detect you, or they will deem you evil, or untrustworthy at best. With many of the servers old vets commenting they want it, they will likely get it too.

(Many people do not read the server rules, example below about the disguise rules being ab/used, personal experience)

This has happened to a character of mine, who before, wearing a disguise, peacefully, and silently, minding their own business at the campfire near the FAI. Was told she was a drow(she wasn't, she was a wild elf, while fully disguised mind you, can't help my ears poke out of the hood in a 10 year old game, threatened to be murdered if I was one, demanded to remove my disguise, and be checked by some elf to make sure they didn't accidentally Kin-slay me by mistake, not even 100 yards away from the FAI) Got an entire crowd of witnesses too. In fact, I retired that character shortly after. She hasn't been played since. (Gameplay on her, less than 2 hours)

Metagame the metagamers, they're easy to fish out. Keep a list of them, and avoid them, you can't really do much else besides roll with the punches. This is why I don't associate with Doron Amar on many of my characters outside of flamerule.

I mean, imagine being a traveler on the road, and a hoard of people come up on you without any real authority in that location, and DEMAND you disrobe or they will murder you based on suspicion. That's how hardcore the metagamers metagame. Right outside the FAI too. I will not name individuals, as that will lead to even more problems in the future. Just something to take with a grain of salt.

But hey, congratulations if you get this, it will kill almost every evil build on the surface, or at least alienate every person who is evil, prevent players from joining in on DM events from fear of public view, and being murdered with self justification from the goodies.

Expect it, just a matter of time. If it exists to be used, it will be ab/used.
If this ability exists, why not modify memory? Why not suggestions, why not detect thoughts.
Why is Geas not a player ability. Oh that's right, it opens up to much ab/use.

But it's okay if PALADINS get theirs.

Not sure how you went from someone demanding that your character unmasks herself to metagaming. Demanding a masked individual to remove the mask is perfectly normal. Walking around with a hidden face, not really. If you want a better disguise, put on a full helm. That is much less suspicious.

As for assuming drow, I do not know the situation you are describing, but assuming a masked person at the campfire near FAI is drow is perfectly normal and acceptable. Maybe those who play drow and come up to the surface to loiter around the FAI campfire shouldn't have set the precedent and the expectation. Judging situations by past experiences is perfectly valid. When 10/10 masked people by the campfire in the past your character has encountered have been drow, guess what your character will expect the next masked person of vaguely similar physique to be? Yep. Drow.

Steve wrote:It's kinda interesting to actually LOOK at how Detect Evil works:

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round
Presence or absence of evil.

2nd Round
Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.

If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.

3rd Round
The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.

And more stuff....

There is actually reason to NOT utilize Detect Evil, cause...wait for it...it has consequences!!!

I will also really, really, really stress, nay POINT OUT, Detect Evil does not deliver the caster a "report card" on Evil.

And, I would add, if BGTSCC customized the Feat so that it did not detect Exact Location of Source, just presence, one would nip in the bud the issue of Pally's walking up to every John, (person) and Jane and saying "You evil bad."

One way to do this is with text, rather than map indicators:
Round 1: There (is/is not) evil in this area (map).
Round 2: There are X evil entities in this area (map)
Round 3: There are evil entities (north/south/east/west) of your location.

Naturally, None Detection would force a roll against this spell, with Detect Evil using the paladin's caster level. Spell Resistance would force a silent check as well. (Lesser) Mind Blank would give immunity. If Detect Evil fails any of these, then the character is simply not counted as evil.

One way to do this is with text, rather than map indicators:
Round 1: There (is/is not) evil in this area (map).
Round 2: There are X evil entities in this area (map)
Round 3: There are evil entities (north/south/east/west) of your location.

Naturally, None Detection would force a roll against this spell, with Detect Evil using the paladin's caster level. Spell Resistance would force a silent check as well. (Lesser) Mind Blank would give immunity. If Detect Evil fails any of these, then the character is simply not counted as evil.

+1 especially the paladin's caster levels part.