Ultimate loot grinder

[chad878262]

literally have billions of gold lying around

I'm not sure you know what "literally" means...

They have to either get lucky or grind and that just takes away from the whole purpose.

If you go to any one of the several players who run Merchant PC's you will actually find items to be very affordable. Those 500K gold epic items in the shops are purchased by them for half that amount or even less as they obtain items to stack their Appraise skill to ~75. Furthermore, Epic gear ceases to be epic when everyone has it, thus that was never the goal of the epic shops. That some players choose to grind and obtain several million gold to outfit their PC(s) is their business. However, no epic loot is required to be successful on this server and certainly is not required to have meaningful RP. The drops in chests have been vastly improved over where they were in previous years, a one hour loot run will result in a minimum of 20,000 gold using several available areas of varying difficulty and there are many pieces of available gear that sell for between 50-100 K.

Epic gear should not be something you spend an afternoon 'saving up' for. It is supposed to take time. Perhaps in the future there will be some mechanic we implement that rewards those that are not loot grinding, but it will not be at the expense of the players that are loot grinding. BGtSCC supports multiple play styles, and one of those styles is grinding, be it quests, mobs, or loot. There are those players that enjoy it so it needs to be somewhat moderated between those that do and those that don't. No matter what the economy is, very little gold or obscene amounts, players that grind will have more. Players that have played consistently for multiple years will have more. Trying to compete with others over gear will likely only result in frustration and taking a break from the server, eventually.

[dedude]

There is no RP in Rushing through the same 5+ places for loot every 6 hours so you can get that one lucky drop or gold for that item.

There can be just as much RP on a loot run (adventure) as there is at the campfire. But if you just run the chests around FAI on your epic pc, the adventure wont be very exciting.

It is the devs responsibility to create options for challenging adventures, and this is something we should prioritize more in my opinion.

If you really just want to spend your time at the campfire, I fail to see how that should entitle you to magic and riches. This is a game about adventures after all.

[aaron22]

there are benefits and detriments to all the playstyles. to the grinders and runners when they want some meaningful RP, it is difficult to get because they dont have any standing or commonalities with those that do that regularly. its just the two sides of the same coin. those that RP a lot have less gold and level slower, but find meaningful RP very easy to come by. even needing to beat it off with a stick to keep at bay when they need to do "chores". if RP is what you prefer, you cannot be upset that you do not have a million gold and 10 level 30s. its the way it works. just find your niche and enjoy what you have. concerning yourself with what you do not will only cause stress.

[Wolfrayne]

there are benefits and detriments to all the playstyles. to the grinders and runners when they want some meaningful RP, it is difficult to get because they dont have any standing or commonalities with those that do that regularly. its just the two sides of the same coin. those that RP a lot have less gold and level slower, but find meaningful RP very easy to come by. even needing to beat it off with a stick to keep at bay when they need to do "chores". if RP is what you prefer, you cannot be upset that you do not have a million gold and 10 level 30s. its the way it works. just find your niche and enjoy what you have. concerning yourself with what you do not will only cause stress.

have been here for 6 years and never had the money for things i want or need......... Its not just about the money. it seems the ONLY reason to do anything for anyone is to roflstomp everything.

Where are the interesting quests? (given they have changed a little)
Where are the interesting encounters?
Where is the crafting system we were going to get back in ... 2012?

.... Look dont get me wrong i appreciate the new classes spells abilities and such but would it hurt to focus a little on other areas?

Actually i am finding that i am enjoying running in to Soulcatchers events more than anything because he takes the time to actually do turn based combat with interesting and meaningful events not just EVERYONE SPAM THE ENEMY....(No offence to anyone else i appreciate what you all do it just feels the focus is really... off)

Loot is only a small problem in the many things here that could use an update.... it seems like the only focus has been on new appearances and new classes.. Gameplay still hasnt had any really changes in 6 years of being here.

[chad878262]

Gameplay still hasnt had any really changes in 6 years of being here.

There has been the implementation of Hide in the Shadows and improvement (some would say we even went to far, though some others would still say you 'must' get HiPS. In my opinion this is a good sign we got it just about right).

There have been changes to the summons, again some would say they are too powerful now, but others likely still think being a conjurer is 'not worth it'...

We have changed evasion to no longer work in heavy/medium armor and granted other benefits to those armors that, while not as good as evasion, make up for part of the loss.

We changed the loot system a couple years ago to support party loot from chests to encourage players to group up and adventure together.

We have implemented calling named planar beings.

We have implemented new custom feats with completely unique gameplay including combat modes, click-jump abilities and use/day or cooldown abilities.

We implemented a dispel fix.

There have been over half a dozen new quests added in the past year to year and a half.

There have been new areas with puzzles, bosses and mobs different from other areas.

Sorry, but I am struggling with the following comment:

.... Look dont get me wrong i appreciate the new classes spells abilities and such but would it hurt to focus a little on other areas

This is an insult to Aspect of Sorrow, Valefort, Nachti, dedude, GeweyInsignia, tfunke, Rasael, Duster47 and all of our area builders, media team and others that implement new content. The amount of content this group has put in to the game is ridiculously large and if you would like to focus on something else I would challenge you to volunteer, learn how to do what you are asking for and help get that new content in game. Far more than new classes, spells and abilities have been added over the past ~18 months thanks to a lot of very hard work by people that do it for free on their own time.

[Valefort]

I don't feel insulted but devs do things that interest them too you know

I'm not sure how quests can be interesting when they're static, sure the first time it'll be cool and then ... yeah you did it, you know it. Did you try Durlag's tower ? There are new quests self contained in this area.

"Interesting encounters", what is an interesting encounter to you ?

Crafting ... I can say that i'm not interested at all in crafting and have trouble understanding the draw to this beyond getting perfectly optimized gear (something that I personally think should be avoided at all costs).

If anything areas will probably get some updates to have more interactable content to play with.

[Wolfrayne]

Im not trying to insult anyone or say anything bad about the work done by any of the devs.. i honestly appreciate the work that has gone in to the server and i know it is done a lot in their free time or i wouldn't of stuck around here as long as i have....

Maybe im not so good with the constructive criticism...

I know quests are not the same as designing a class or new spell etc but why not every now and again change it up with some new quests.. and NPC looking for a new rare drop or something?

As for crafting im not talking about being able to perfectly craft gear but why not an NPC that lets me add 1d4 elemental damage to a +1 weapon or something? you know so i can add a little flavor to some gear? might be a good gold sink too.

Or hells even let us craft new props and roleplay items and yes i know you can rename items and change icons etc but why not expand on these things? they have so much potential... im a druid how about an item that plants a temporary tree or bush or flower until restarts? things like this!

[Wolfrayne]

"Interesting encounters", what is an interesting encounter to you ?

Things like "oh look i found a rare gem! oh.. bandits seem to have been watching me and have attacked me!" or maybe you find some book or ancient scroll that is cursed causes undead to randomly pop up and attack you.. its these little things that have the potential to add so much.. variety to an encounter or a normal run...

[aaron22]

"Interesting encounters", what is an interesting encounter to you ?

Things like "oh look i found a rare gem! oh.. bandits seem to have been watching me and have attacked me!" or maybe you find some book or ancient scroll that is cursed causes undead to randomly pop up and attack you.. its these little things that have the potential to add so much.. variety to an encounter or a normal run...

i instantly imagined a monk on a loot run with a trail of mummies following FAR behind fearing some low level group working though a challenging dungeon.

[Valefort]

It's not possible to craft props, it's possible to add more of those but that's all. Cursed items .. already exist you know, at a given time they could even polymorph you, but I believe that was removed. This system can be tweaked to make room for more weird curses but since you didn't even mention this system I'm not sure you'll notice

Ambushes and special encounters already exist as well, they're simply not everywhere. Globally more randomness and surprises will happen however they'll always miss the touch of a DM and can't be elaborate.

As for crafting im not talking about being able to perfectly craft gear but why not an NPC that lets me add 1d4 elemental damage to a +1 weapon or something? you know so i can add a little flavor to some gear?

Yeah, no. Clearly no ! What you described is any gish's wet dream, +1d4 damage is the level 10 ability of Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness. +1d4 damage is not flavor it's power, if all you want is flavor you can rewrite the description of the item and that's done.

[V'rass]

1d4 is weak compared to 1d6 and 1d8... soon as i can i will be getting 1d6, and i pray everyday 1d8 will eventually be added so i can get that too.

[Egg Shen]

...Furthermore, Epic gear ceases to be epic when everyone has it, thus that was never the goal of the epic shops. That some players choose to grind and obtain several million gold to outfit their PC(s) is their business. However, no epic loot is required to be successful on this server and certainly is not required to have meaningful RP. The drops in chests have been vastly improved over where they were in previous years, a one hour loot run will result in a minimum of 20,000 gold using several available areas of varying difficulty and there are many pieces of available gear that sell for between 50-100 K.

Epic gear should not be something you spend an afternoon 'saving up' for. It is supposed to take time. Perhaps in the future there will be some mechanic we implement that rewards those that are not loot grinding, but it will not be at the expense of the players that are loot grinding. BGtSCC supports multiple play styles, and one of those styles is grinding, be it quests, mobs, or loot. There are those players that enjoy it so it needs to be somewhat moderated between those that do and those that don't. No matter what the economy is, very little gold or obscene amounts, players that grind will have more. Players that have played consistently for multiple years will have more. Trying to compete with others over gear will likely only result in frustration and taking a break from the server, eventually.

So, I don't think the argument about 'epic gear ceases to be epic when everybody has it' can really apply to our version of the Realms. We've got hosts of godlike epic level characters running around the Gate, so that bit of Realms realism went out the window a long, long time ago. Epic level characters should be able to get their hands on epic level gear in approximately the same time it takes to level up said character, imo. Acquiring better and better gear appropriate to your level is one way that epic levels can actually survive to become epic in the first place. I'm not a huge fan of it being a second phase of mechanical development for those willing to put in the mindless hours farming.

I think 20,000 an hour is probably twice the rate, maybe a little more, than what most people's non-loot-focused characters can acquire (unless they get lucky and find something that might fetch a decent price at Mudd's). Perhaps I'm wrong here; I'd be curious to see what everybody else thinks.

And please don't tell me that you're thinking that people who love grinding will complain about better loot/more gold. You're right that there is obviously a balance that the devs need to shoot for, but I really can't see droves of hardcore grinders leaving or even complaining about an easier route to outfit a character the way you want to outfit him. If they like grinding, does it really matter how long it takes other people to "finish" a character (mechanically) in their eyes?

Have the devs stated what the 'purpose' of the epic item store is? If so, I must have missed it...

so anyway, I think 18 monk for max speed and 3 rogue for traps/locks. This gives me 9 levels to play with. What's some good options for a str based quarterstaff wielding monk? Fighter? DC? Any new prestige classes seem like a good fit?

[mrm3ntalist]

Have the devs stated what the 'purpose' of the epic item store is? If so, I must have missed it...

Reading your post, it is obvious that you really missed it.

In short, the purpose of the epic shops are to make some epic gear ( end game gear ) available to all players while at the same time dropping the prices.

Reading some of the comments of some here, i wonder where they were playing before epic shops. For example, where and how much did you get +4 boots before? From what you guys write, most likely you didnt. Unless you grinded ( i know right... ) more than you do now and being lucky to drop them, you had to pay around 800k. That price is half that in stores if you want to buy it. +4 boots go even lower than that in the auction house. So, how is this example worse than before. You dont have to even go at epic weapons that if you were lucky they would go for millions while more commonly those who got them would only trade them for similar items. Sneak gear is also a good example.

So, from these examples it is obvious that the epic shops achieved what the devs wanted. Epic gear available for all, at lesser prices.

I understand some not liking those shops. The rhetoric needs to change though, because it is 100% wrong. I wonder, if we were to remove the epic shops and get the character vaults back to before the epic shops existed, what you guys would say. What you would say when the only chance of getting +4 boots is through countless hours of grinding or by paying 800k? If you criticize now what would you say then?

It is simple as that. A decision/change cannot satisfy all, and there are people that can never be satisfied.

[Egg Shen]

Not sure why that bit at the end drew your attention, as obviously the rest of my post was neither for or against the concept of an epic item shop, but for clarity's sake I was referring to this post from chad.

The idea of epic ships was to consider introducing the idea for a character to have 1 or 2 epic items and use lesser items in other slots.

Was just my smarmy way of saying that I didn't believe that the Devs had quite so specific a vision in mind when introducing the hell shop.

If you're interpreting my post as being anti-epic gear shop, then you're mistaken. A stated goal of fair access across the board at more affordable prices is great. Hinting that wanting to fully equip your character with the good stuff (as most people who make their fortune the way adventurers do would) is somehow against the officially stated purpose of the shop is not so great.

Really, I've come to understand that people think getting high level gear and/or characters should require 'work'. I'm not really fighting against that concept anymore, I just thought that several of chad's points needed counterpoints as they seemed a little off to me.

So, about that build...

[chad878262]

To be clear, when we introduced the epic shop with the prices as they are the goal was very much that over the course of leveling, 1 to 30 an 'average' player would be able to buy one or two pieces of Epic gear. Those who grind will be able to buy more, those who level solely by RP'ing around a campfire or in an inn, rarely or never adventuring will likely not be able to afford anything without gifts from their friends.

The point of my post was simply that the prices won't be lowered as when we introduced the epic shop the majority of players had ZERO epic gear. There were then those that were lucky enough to find an epic item or (more likely) lucky enough that some other long time player (a have) was willing to accept less in order to allow the (have not) to obtain the gear, because they would never win a bidding war.

The epic shop(s) were a way to introduce the ability of players to obtain epic items. It was not introduced as a way to EASILY obtain epic items, especially not to fully outfit a PC. Of course we realized that those who grind would be able to do so, but we wanted to make the items affordable enough that most players would be able to afford at least one or two items over the course of going from 1 to 30. That goal was accomplished as if you adventure, alone or with others you will have enough gold to afford the epic shops. If you want to fully outfit your PC it is going to require you to put more focus in to obtaining gold, which is as it was designed.

As M3nt said, the cost of obtaining epic gear is far less than it was prior to the epic shops and we have no intention of reducing it further. The economy already shows the impact on those who try to sell greater gear. +3 Natural Armor or Dodge boots used to average about 30K at Mudd's Auction and now they sell for ~8-18K. The impacts of epic pricing is far wider ranging than just on epic items and we do not wish to have any further reductions at this time.

I say we because such discussions have taken place. This is in no way saying everyone in QC/Admin/or other staff agree's with these statements, it is only saying that collectively there is not a desire to reduce costs. In my opinion this is the correct decision, but that doesn't mean everyone else on staff is in agreement. In other words the discussion has been had and prices are as they are, if anything certain items were considered too cheap and may have been increased.

EDIT to add: This has gotten off topic so I won't be responding to any more concerns/questions/posts around epic gear. The topic is as per the title, about a build request for the ultimate loot grinder build. Suggest that if there is a desire to further discuss epic shop pricing that a separate topic be created or necro one of the past threads to discuss.