Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Ahku wrote:Is this interesting?
could you elabarate?

"On another note: what does anyone think of the e15 Leveling system, like what they have going on, on the Skullport Server?"

;-p

From their web page:

What is "E15"?

Originally devised for a past server, the 15 level system is a collection of class and mechanical changes that effectively cap the maximum character level at 15 while still retaining a feeling of progression that goes beyond these levels. All of these changes are colloquially referred to as the "E15" system.

Why E15?

This system reduces the power scale of all player characters across the board by a significant margin when compared to systems with a full 30 levels available. For a roleplay focused server, the system introduces many benefits that are highly conducive to a roleplay heavy environment:

• Epic characters that reach demi-god levels of power have always been an extremely awkward barrier for both DMs and players to RP around. This system removes that barrier, making it much easier to roleplay at your power level and giving DMs more freedom to appropriately challenge players without throwing something ridiculous at them like hordes of Balors.
• In a level 30 system, the power gap between epic characters and non-epic characters is extremely high, making it nigh impossible for a group of lower level characters to challenge a higher level one. This isn't the case here! A group of clever and like-minded lower level characters can viably take down higher and even max level characters.
• Reducing the power level introduces more grounded roleplay overall; player characters can be powerful, but they'll never reach the heights of famous named NPCs.
• Previous cut and paste powerbuilds aren't applicable here, and indeed, powerbuilding is less relevant overall due to the reduced power scale. This means players can now more comfortably build whatever concept they wish with RP in mind first, without the fear that they'll lag behind too far.

There are many other benefits, small and large, but the takeaway is that this system highly benefits a roleplay focused server.

Why does nobody have a problem with monsters not staying dead, even named boss monsters, but somehow if a pc doesn't stay dead it's just too much to swallow? PVE is somehow fun and rewarding, but pvp is a joke? We gloss over or ignore or role play around the killing of the same halfling or orc for a quest, but by the gods we can't be asked to suspend our disbelief when it comes to pvp.

Maybe that's why some people think level 30 is boring, when in reality it could be much more fun if people just changed their perspectives a little and learned to work within the limitations of the medium (you know, like we've all already learned to do with npc's). I suspect it's really all about OOC bruised egos and such, but perhaps I'm wrong.

And I'm in almost exactly the same boat as Vartigy. Infrequent and irregular play time with no more than a couple of hours online at once. This kills most serious and in depth role play. Kills participation in DM events, too. But since I very much enjoy the mechanics of nwn2 and the insane amount options available when designing a character, I keep coming back for more. Because I like trying out lots of different build ideas on the live server, I, too, get a tad frustrated with the 20-30 level grind.

Steve wrote:

Ahku wrote:Is this interesting?
could you elabarate?

"On another note: what does anyone think of the e15 Leveling system, like what they have going on, on the Skullport Server?"

;-p

From their web page:

What is "E15"?

Originally devised for a past server, the 15 level system is a collection of class and mechanical changes that effectively cap the maximum character level at 15 while still retaining a feeling of progression that goes beyond these levels. All of these changes are colloquially referred to as the "E15" system.

Why E15?

This system reduces the power scale of all player characters across the board by a significant margin when compared to systems with a full 30 levels available. For a roleplay focused server, the system introduces many benefits that are highly conducive to a roleplay heavy environment:

• Epic characters that reach demi-god levels of power have always been an extremely awkward barrier for both DMs and players to RP around. This system removes that barrier, making it much easier to roleplay at your power level and giving DMs more freedom to appropriately challenge players without throwing something ridiculous at them like hordes of Balors.
• In a level 30 system, the power gap between epic characters and non-epic characters is extremely high, making it nigh impossible for a group of lower level characters to challenge a higher level one. This isn't the case here! A group of clever and like-minded lower level characters can viably take down higher and even max level characters.
• Reducing the power level introduces more grounded roleplay overall; player characters can be powerful, but they'll never reach the heights of famous named NPCs.
• Previous cut and paste powerbuilds aren't applicable here, and indeed, powerbuilding is less relevant overall due to the reduced power scale. This means players can now more comfortably build whatever concept they wish with RP in mind first, without the fear that they'll lag behind too far.

There are many other benefits, small and large, but the takeaway is that this system highly benefits a roleplay focused server.

Sounds cool, but how would you put such a system into BG at this point? If you do anything to shift the current heirarchy there are going to be a lot of frustrated players, and many may even quit. It'd be chaos, seemingly. I do like the idea overall though. I've always been more comfortable with lower magic or at least lower level stuff. Fightings balors and demi gods is out of my comfort zone lol.

Definitely quit if that is added... my builds are weak as it is nerfing them by 15 lvs, no thanks.

By the time you hit level 20 you should really be looking at a change in play style anyway. Moving from "I-need-to-get-all-the-things" to more of a "I-need-to-leave-my-mark-on-the-world".

I wonder what kind of effect it would have if XP from monsters, RP, fishing etc... all stopped at level 20 and you could only get XP from DM awards and then have DMs hand out XP for driving RP for other people.

NeonAvenger wrote:By the time you hit level 20 you should really be looking at a change in play style anyway. Moving from "I-need-to-get-all-the-things" to more of a "I-need-to-leave-my-mark-on-the-world".

I wonder what kind of effect it would have if XP from monsters, RP, fishing etc... all stopped at level 20 and you could only get XP from DM awards and then have DMs hand out XP for driving RP for other people.

A world of Haves and Have Nots.

NeonAvenger wrote:By the time you hit level 20 you should really be looking at a change in play style anyway. Moving from "I-need-to-get-all-the-things" to more of a "I-need-to-leave-my-mark-on-the-world".

I wonder what kind of effect it would have if XP from monsters, RP, fishing etc... all stopped at level 20 and you could only get XP from DM awards and then have DMs hand out XP for driving RP for other people.

I think this is really good in theory, but I've personally never seen it handled well in practice. I love the idea of epic level characters focusing on more epic deeds, but the reality is we all live in different time zones and have wildly different schedules/availability. This would also likely open the door for at the very least 'accusations' of favortism if one person or group were getting to be epic, but others were feeling ignored.

EDIT: Oh, and it may result in people post level 20 only logging in when they know they will get DM attention.

Also, if such a system were added how would it address the vast majority of players who already have at least one character who is post level 20, and even maxed out at level 30?

NeonAvenger wrote: ... I wonder what kind of effect it would have if XP from monsters, RP, fishing etc... all stopped at level 20 and you could only get XP from DM awards and then have DMs hand out XP for driving RP for other people.

To be clear: I don't think it would work. It was an idle thought written down to encourage discussion.
DMs would be swamped with requests making it almost impossible to get anything done, accusations of favoritism would be thrown around, there's all the existing epic characters (1000 or so if I read the stats right) that would need some kind of solution, people endlessly swarming events (even worse than currently) since they offer DM award XP, and most likely a large number of people (both those who just love to grind and those that can't play very much) would see high-epics as impossible to reach and leave.

The idea was driven by the question: The server is supposed to place emphasis on RP so why is the attitude of "If you build for RP your character will be weaker and that's just the price you pay" common and accepted? Shouldn't undesirable behaviour be "taxed"?
Followed by: How could things be structured to reward RP with mechanical power?

Vartigy wrote: ... A world of Haves and Have Nots.

But don't we have that already? Isn't the current divide between "those that grind/trade for hours and those that don't", or between "those that build for RP and those that power-build"?
Assuming all the other problems could be side-stepped somehow isn't a system where the divide is between "Those that have invested a great deal of time and effort into the server and those that haven't" preferable?

Babuguuscooties wrote: ... we all live in different time zones and have wildly different schedules/availability ...

In theory you wouldn't even have to be logged in to drive RP for others.
Hypothetically.... you're a necromancer, pretending to be a studious sage living in the eastern farmlands of Baldur's Gate, while you construct monstrosities made entirely of dead hands.
You contact the DMs and ask them to run an event where one of your "pets" escapes and some heroes must save the day. You could have a follow up event where someone follows the monster's trail back to your hastily abandoned laboratory... and so on, and so forth...

I don't disagree with the premise at all. Your scenario about a player-driven event with a necromancer's abomination (frankenstein's monster) on the loose sounds like good fun all around. I just don't know of a way in which this server can change too drastically without alienating a lot of its audience.

Just look at most other servers in nwn1 and 2. There are very few in either game with steady communities because the overall player-count is so low. Most of the more hardcore servers are dead or empty ghost towns.

I am not opposed to hardcore rules, or more to your point: I am not opposed to empowering RP builds or what-have-you.

I'm torn, to be honest. I consider myself to be too new to be suggesting big changes for a server when I still don't even fully understand it, or its community.

On one hand I love the idea of less emphasis on power builds, and more emphasis on RP. However, even now there's nothing really stopping you from doing that. Yes, if you ever have to face another player in pvp their powerbuild will likely win, but I'm level 23 and have not yet had any pvp forced upon me. I haven't even had to bow out of it.

No one really pays attention to whether or not your character can solo the white dragon IC, and I'm kind of glad for that to be honest. It's far too mechnical for me when stuff like killing a static spawn gets you bragging rights IC.

So yeah, my problem is I don't have any solutions to offer. It's also that I'm simultaneously cautious about big changes because I'd rather play BG as it is now with 50-70 odd players than play a setup more to my personal liking (like lower magic, lower level cap, perma death, etc) with only 5-10 players. That's just me.

Leveling isn't the problem.

It's the mindset behind why people think Levels are important, to "better" role-play.

That mindset, imho, is created from 2 major reasons: 1) the possibility exists to easily become lvl 30 (as in no real limitation, besides RL time investment); 2) the (wrongly) perceived notion that an Epic Lvl Toon gets more RP/DM attention/has-greater-affect on the Server.

The accomplishments and storytelling that define great RP can be had at any Level, really. It if you keep the above mindset, it will drive your "needs" and lead to dissatisfaction with how this Server is setup.

As for the e15 System, in regard to BGTSCC, anything can be done, really, if there is will to do it. Just look at all the amazing scripting that Ras, Endelyon, Le Valefort, dedude, Nachti, etc.—so many I can't list them all—have done to date!!

e15 appears to be geared towards making Leveling less a "chore," and also bring power Levels closer together, for the sake of general RP.

Steve wrote:Leveling isn't the problem.

It's the mindset behind why people think Levels are important, to "better" role-play.

That mindset, imho, is created from 2 major reasons: 1) the possibility exists to easily become lvl 30 (as in no real limitation, besides RL time investment); 2) the (wrongly) perceived notion that an Epic Lvl Toon gets more RP/DM attention/has-greater-affect on the Server.

The accomplishments and storytelling that define great RP can be had at any Level, really. It if you keep the above mindset, it will drive your "needs" and lead to dissatisfaction with how this Server is setup.

As for the e15 System, in regard to BGTSCC, anything can be done, really, if there is will to do it. Just look at all the amazing scripting that Ras, Endelyon, Le Valefort, dedude, Nachti, etc.—so many I can't list them all—have done to date!!

e15 appears to be geared towards making Leveling less a "chore," and also bring power Levels closer together, for the sake of general RP.

Would it piss a lot of players off though? What kind of backlash are we talking? I'm not disagreeing with you. Based on the description the e15 sounds like its right up my alley, but what's the point if it causes a lot of players to be upset or quit? I'm not saying it will. It just seems like drastic changes to leveling will likely garner a harsh response from most people who are already epic level.


EDIT: Oh, and I just wanted to add that I agree about some people having the wrong mindset. RP is a journey, not a race. I personally blame MMORPGs for this mindset though. RP in most MMORPGs that I've played is one of those things most people reach max level before they start participating in. I don't know why that is, but I'm guessing its to feel powerful, and to be able to easily traverse the world as needed.

Well, it is my opinion that if you'd rage quit because BGTSCC went from Lvl 30 to Lvl 15 cap, then you're not playing on BGTSCC for the Role-play/storylines, but for the mechanics.

This is a role-play Server, after all, right?!? RIGHT?!!?

Steve wrote:Well, it is my opinion that if you'd rage quit because BGTSCC went from Lvl 30 to Lvl 15 cap, then you're not playing on BGTSCC for the Role-play/storylines, but for the mechanics.

This is a role-play Server, after all, right?!? RIGHT?!!?

That's a fine belief, but what you're saying is if they quit then let them go, right? Well, that sort of mindset just seems like playing fast and loose to me. I personally would love for a level 15 cap, as I don't like epic levels anyway. However, as it stands I don't see this server adopting that. I'm definitely open to suggestions, but if half the server leaves because the game isnt what they played it for anymore (IE the build selections and epic content) then you're going to have a dwindling community that may end up like most other servers with similar rulesets. I haven't checked skullport, but something tells me they attract far fewer players than BG does on average, right?

Steve wrote:
This is a role-play Server, after all, right?!? RIGHT?!!?

That's the 435,000 XP question.

There seems to be a rather large assumption that people wanting/grinding? to reach level 30 only start to RP there. Who's to say they don't enjoy little bits of RP, in amongst their leveling and adventuring, but they chose not to sit around for hours on end not enjoying the gameplay mechanics that has been painstakingly created over the years. Just because they don't get involved in the full RP that others chose to... are they lesser people? Kind of an elitist attitude isn't that?

Here's a thought. If someone choses to play the game, solo, occasionally partying, grinding and exploring and enjoying the server in it's whole, BY THEMSELVES. But if they are also careful, and try not to harm other peoples RP, by either staying clear, or interacting when unavoidable, in a responsible manner.
Are they bad/undesirable/despised/evil/lesser beings of the server?

I'd argue the server caters to a wide variety of playing styles that sit either in the Pure RP or the Coffee Grinders camp and various places in between. Some even have different characters that sit in different camps as well!
I'm proud to admit I'm one of those that has characters that fall in all 50 shades of those extremes.

There was a time where I looked less upon people who's characters didn't align with my current playstyle if and when I encountered them. And after some inner assessment, I came to realise that at the end of the day, none of them ever truly negatively affected how I played my characters. Only I had control of how my characters played, and how I enjoyed the server. Personal attitude is everything.
So to any I may have wronged in the past verbally(literally) I do apologise.

Here's something I've adapted from another application.
You came to this game with nothing.
You spend time logged in to make characters and have them live out stories either by yourself or with other player characters.
And when its all done and you leave the game. You leave with nothing but memories.
Don't get stressed out playing the game.
Your time is limited so make the memories good.

Yes, 20 onwards sucks for xp, for those that like to regularly advance.
We don't have to like it, but it's something we have to tolerate.
I wouldn't say no if the xp rate was assisted somewhat in those levels
And i'll keep plugging away at it, because I love the idea of the challenge of the FR, and the addition of the dynamic CR certainly has added some flavour to that.

Apologies for the length.

Purely hypothetical, starting from scratch, including vault wipe, there are quite a few things I would do differently. One of them is moving to an e15 variant. Game play wise it is simply a much better fit for an online game of our population size, not to mention it fits better into FR lore and D&D mechanics in general. It requires a full server content re-balance though.

#ToT_wipe