Muleing / Twinking discussion

[Valefort]

None plus they're likely to become sour about the inequality, even if nowadays epic gear is infinitely more accessible than it used to be and thus this inequality won't last overly long (but in turn it lowered the power growth time for a character .. which is a bad thing in my eyes as it favors making multiple characters).

[mrm3ntalist]

In PvP, which i assume you talk about, this can be an issue at the very early levels. As you progress in levels that becomes 0 ( around level 10 ).

No, it's not PvP - it's with any low or mid level PvM adventuring group, where most members have gear that fit's their level or that they found on their own and one party member has muled greater/epic gear. Guess how much fun the other party members have, playing along that "über" toon, who does never get hit and kills all in a blink.

And that specific issue, you think will be solved by banning muling? Really? What next, ban potions and prcs so that you everyone in your party is on the same level? Talk about baning muling to someone who found a dream item on a character that cant use it and would love to start a new character concept based on that item.

I believe you need to rethink what you are asking here. A dev, ( maybe dedude ) should explain what this ban means, what limitation will impose in order to have a fair system working for all - meaning no windows to hand an item to another character. Once you do find all these details out, come and tell us how fun it is. At the same time, there will still be invulnerable characters in your party.

[Steve]

. .. which is a bad thing in my eyes as it favors making multiple characters).

This is also an aspect that has value, to consider in the overall discussion.

If the current paradigm favors multiple grind toons in order to furnish your "main" with uber gear, that reeks of all sorts of OOC gaming. Boo.

[mrm3ntalist]

. .. which is a bad thing in my eyes as it favors making multiple characters).

This is also an aspect that has value, to consider in the overall discussion.

If the current paradigm favors multiple grind toons in order to furnish your "main" with uber gear, that reeks of all sorts of OOC gaming. Boo.

Why you need multiple toons? You only need one. What you need is time. Cant balance that, unless we force players to play - lets say - only one hour per day...

[Theodore01]

In PvP, which i assume you talk about, this can be an issue at the very early levels. As you progress in levels that becomes 0 ( around level 10 ).

No, it's not PvP - it's with any low or mid level PvM adventuring group, where most members have gear that fit's their level or that they found on their own and one party member has muled greater/epic gear. Guess how much fun the other party members have, playing along that "über" toon, who does never get hit and kills all in a blink.

And that specific issue, you think will be solved by banning muling? Really? What next, ban potions and prcs so that you everyone in your party is on the same level? Talk about baning muling to someone who found a dream item on a character that cant use it and would love to start a new character concept based on that item.

I'm not against muling, as i've grown accustomed to it also. But enabling Item Level Restrictions again would solve it for sure.

Nothing wrong with character concept based on a nice item. But using that awesome heritage item form the beginning.......
A greehorn char. should train/learn/study....until he get's strong enough to wield that item.
And if you RCR into a higher level toon, such a restriction would not hinder him much - as only a few items need a char-level > 20.

[Blame The Rogue]

i was just thinking of the negative impact banning muling would have on IC businesses that sell merchandise/gear

i wouldn't want to have to be the one tell a player, "well, you found that item with an alt, so you cant pass it over to your main character, that runs the merchant company, even though both characters work for said company"

i guess guild banks could be excluded from any "no muling" rule, but then, that would make players not belonging to guilds unhappy. "guilds get to mule. why cant i?"

[dedude]

I would be happy to explain how no-muling could look

A ban on muling would be backed mechanically on the item level. So once an item is locked to your character, none of your other characters will be able to use this item. It can still be traded to other players and sold at auction. It can still be in the inventory of your merchant alt, he just can't equip it.

There are many variations on this though. It could for example allow a new character to receive a single item passed down from the same player, this to allow for characters build around a special item concept. It could also include ways to "unlock" items, perhaps through the in-game auction. So if an auctioned item hasn't been bought by another player for X days, then your own characters are allowed to buy it - but the sales price would probably go to charity in this scenario.

Money muling may not be possible to stop mechanically. But if it is against the rules, who would do it risking a server ban? Not saying the DM's should start hunting mulers, but they may stumble over it happening, or we may detect it mechanically.

Banning muling/twinking would probably also open a discussion on loot balance, depending on which variation is implemented.

There are so many negative side-effects to muling, off the top of mine and Valefort's head:

• Game balance against encounter CR
• Economy - with no twinking, all characters need new equipment all through their levels. When you can’t save an item for your next character you are more likely to put it up for sale, increasing pc-to-pc trade. Items get retired with their owner, so the collective inventory of pc items isn’t inflated eternally
• With twinking you are removing a huge part of the basic premise of an RPG. Half of character progression is equipping your character as he grows. Where is the joy of finding that +1 weapon at level 3, if you are already decked out in +3 gear? (This part only hurts the player himself of course)
• It is an OOC construct. Those are unavoidable, but should only be used when necessary, and when IC constructs aren’t enough to handle a game feature. Muling/twinking is not necessary for anything, and serves no purpose for the game as such
• New players do not have gear to mule, the gear inequality increases the more time you spent on the server account wide. When they compare themselves, at equivalent level, to an old player's PC with twinked gear there's no match (especially for non-casters), which will undoubtedly make them sour. Muleing is a choice for the have, not for the have not
• It promotes grinding-alts and RP-alts instead of sticking with a well rounded character

[mrm3ntalist]

I'm not against muling, as i've grown accustomed to it also. But enabling Item Level Restrictions again would solve it for sure.

Nothing wrong with character concept based on a nice item. But using that awesome heritage item form the beginning.......
A greehorn char. should train/learn/study....until he get's strong enough to wield that item.
And if you RCR into a higher level toon, such a restriction would not hinder him much - as only a few items need a char-level > 20.

There is a more relevant thread for the item restrictions.

As far as the train/learn/study, what about those concepts with background such as "Nikos is a veteran fighter, coming from the X fantasy village and fought in the Y epic world. He currently cant wear +2 Heavy plate armor though, because his first level is rogue

What I am saying that the item level restriction is just that, a restriction. If one want to level fast, be immune against mobs etc it can be done with or without item level restrictions. If someone doesnt want to mule items he can still do it. However, a player who is not interested in leveling and wants to really take it slow (lol) does not have an option with the restrictions. He cannot be more relevant in what this server most, roleplay and interactions with other chars and DMs.

About muling though, i wil lsay it again. Make certain you know what restrictions are needed in order to police muling effectively. Think about what RP it disables. Maybe one of the devs can give you an idea, then come here and tell me how fun that will be.

EDIT: haha ninjaed by Dedude The man has a plan already, so if you people want to ban muling, it will be done!

Edit2: " It can still be traded to other players and sold at auction. It can still be in the inventory of your merchant alt, he just can't equip it.". Can it be traded after being equiped? If it can then i can exploit that by giving it to a friend and getting it back or just by using the auction. If it cant, well you can all see the extra limitation

Edit3: That is - at the very least - what limitations will be imposed. Let me know how many are still for banning muling

[Deathgrowl]

Not long ago, I started a fighter at level 1. The only thing I moved over (at level 5 or so) was a +3 axe. The rest of his gear is entirely from looting and merchants. I do perfectly fine with that. Easy enough to buy +3 gear once you get the gold flowing somewhat. And occasionally it even drops. Like my +3 tower shield was a drop.

Point is, you don't need to mule to be successful, and the only real difference is that you might level a few percent quicker because you can handle slightly more dangerous foes. So whether people are able to mule or not is almost irrelevant.

This discussion is thus pointless.

[Blame The Rogue]

when threads like this and the ILR thread pop up, i always ask myself, "is this change necessary for everyone to enjoy the server? would this change be popular amongst the playerbase? is it a "positive" change for everyone? would this change actually enhance RP? is this really something we want staff to spend time on? not just the mechanics, but policing." 9 times out of 10, my conclusion is no

[aaron22]

as i stated earlier. twinking your toon matters at early levels. level 1-5ish. after that the difference is so meaningless it is hardly worth any of the trouble. level 1-5= one day at best, two weeks at worst. this server is long not hard. two weeks of being amazing around nobody (early areas are ghost-towns) when it takes 6 months to a year to get 30? its not worth all this discussion nor the admin's attention to make it go away. i would not care either way, because it doesnt really matter. its almost like we are arguing principles not anything that pertains to the game.

[Thorsson]

So that "proper balance for everyone" is better taken care with no item level restrictions.

You are talking about making low level characters closer to higher, which is anyway impossible.

I was talking about levelling the playing field for players, so that new players aren't always stuck in an inferior position to long time players.

I've seen the argument here that there should be some kind of reward for loyalty. Why? This smacks entirely of entitlement, rather than any logic.

P.S. No idea why you talk about item level descriptions. I also have no idea why you brought up PvP, which I did not mention at all.

I am saying that there is a big imbalance in the early levels of this server, which you clearly admit when you say, "you can 'immune' against mobs. You can have AC more than the mobs AB +20, you can equip SR items from level1 ( UD shop), you can use potions. Against PvE, the balance concern is non existent". This is all wrong. Level 1 should be a very dangerous time.

[Thorsson]

And that specific issue, you think will be solved by banning muling? Really? What next, ban potions and prcs so that you everyone in your party is on the same level? Talk about baning muling to someone who found a dream item on a character that cant use it and would love to start a new character concept based on that item.

I believe you need to rethink what you are asking here. A dev, ( maybe dedude ) should explain what this ban means, what limitation will impose in order to have a fair system working for all - meaning no windows to hand an item to another character. Once you do find all these details out, come and tell us how fun it is. At the same time, there will still be invulnerable characters in your party.

Muling isn't the main issue, it is really the removal of level restrictions. Potions should be restricted in some way; scrolls and wands too.

After all we supposedly ban power building, ban some classes, nerf others, but allow a level 1 character Epic gear and unlimited potions/scrolls and wands, if he has been fully twinked. Where's the logic in this?

[mrm3ntalist]

Level 1 should be a very dangerous time.

Level1 in an CR1 area, should be as dangerous as a level20 in a CR20 area.

Muling isn't the main issue, it is really the removal of level restrictions. Potions should be restricted in some way; scrolls and wands too.

After all we supposedly ban power building, ban some classes, nerf others, but allow a level 1 character Epic gear and unlimited potions/scrolls and wands, if he has been fully twinked. Where's the logic in this?

What do you propose exactly? Ban muling, restict potions/scrolls.items etc? Do you feel that most players will enjoy such changes? The poll on the item restriction ( even if it is just that) says differently.

[NeOmega]

In PvP, which i assume you talk about, this can be an issue at the very early levels. As you progress in levels that becomes 0 ( around level 10 ).

No, it's not PvP - it's with any low or mid level PvM adventuring group, where most members have gear that fit's their level or that they found on their own and one party member has muled greater/epic gear. Guess how much fun the other party members have, playing along that "über" toon, who does never get hit and kills all in a blink.

And that specific issue, you think will be solved by banning muling? Really? What next, ban potions.....

potions take skill and timing and gold, and are an equalizer. unfortunately, every time i play with a noob, i give them potions, so we can go adventure at higher levels, have some real fun. EVERY time, they try to pocket the potions, either to save them for later or sell them for gold towards some uber merchant item. Then they get killed, say its too difficult, and say they are going back to the graveyard or killing lizardmen. So annoying.