Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Khazrak wrote:You want to make level 30's lose items at random upon death?

Um... Well, okay. Next time you die, roll a 1d12. 1 = amulet, 2 = cloak, 3 = gloves, 4 = top ring, 5 = bottom ring, 6 = helm, 7 = armor, 8 = belt, 9 = boots, 10 = mainhand, 11 = offhand, 12 = reroll. Empty slots rolled = reroll. When you die from now on, roll 1d12 and delete the item you rolled via campfire, just as an experiment to see how enjoyable this idea is. It doesn't matter what the cause of death is: lag, PvP, a whole mob of gold-named mobs appearing in an area you were exploring. Delete that item.

I would surmise it's not very enjoyable.

I've lost 200 million worth of bling on EVE because I accidentally left my MWD on while trying to align and warp out. It'd be roughly equivalent to that if you died to lag. Pissed me off, sure, but it's taught me to turn off that damn MWD before trying to warp away.


I'd actually argue item loss on death would help close the gap between long and short term players. It'd discourage long term from using expensive items for everything, and if they did and failed, knock them down a peg.

well how abut a roll that determines what source your loss will come
1/5 equipped
2/5 bag 1
3/5 bag 2
4/5 bag 3
5/5 bag 4

then a roll to see what item is dropped (not sure how many slots in each bag)

1-32 slots are for each bag slot
1-12 for equipped items

If deleveling results in exploits, which I admittedly don't really understand, would it still be possible to impose ability/skill penalties for a certain period of time? Or perhaps cause epic feats to become inactive? Or remove say 25% HPs for a given duration to simulate injury? Those would all make me think twice. Gold loss, not so much (okay, I would feel the sting, but I think many players wouldn't blink an eye).

Well, there is also the option that if your Toon dies at level 30, it's actually dead. As in, dead. Like, dead dead. DEAD!!

I've never been a fan of permadeath. With my work schedule and limited game time these days, that would be too harsh a penalty to stomach.

Thinking on that further, I wonder if we might allow say 10 deaths before a permadeath kicks in. That would at least make players think twice before rushing into that dragon's den. I hesitate to even suggest this because I'm sure it has flaws. I'd much prefer one of the penalty ideas above.

Alow level 30s to lose a level from xp loss.

Hoihe wrote:

Khazrak wrote:You want to make level 30's lose items at random upon death?

Um... Well, okay. Next time you die, roll a 1d12. 1 = amulet, 2 = cloak, 3 = gloves, 4 = top ring, 5 = bottom ring, 6 = helm, 7 = armor, 8 = belt, 9 = boots, 10 = mainhand, 11 = offhand, 12 = reroll. Empty slots rolled = reroll. When you die from now on, roll 1d12 and delete the item you rolled via campfire, just as an experiment to see how enjoyable this idea is. It doesn't matter what the cause of death is: lag, PvP, a whole mob of gold-named mobs appearing in an area you were exploring. Delete that item.

I would surmise it's not very enjoyable.

I've lost 200 million worth of bling on EVE because I accidentally left my MWD on while trying to align and warp out. It'd be roughly equivalent to that if you died to lag. Pissed me off, sure, but it's taught me to turn off that damn MWD before trying to warp away.


I'd actually argue item loss on death would help close the gap between long and short term players. It'd discourage long term from using expensive items for everything, and if they did and failed, knock them down a peg.

Fair enough on the EVE thing; but I honestly don't know that it would have the desired effect.

On my newly minted svirfneblin ranger, I've gotten my first epic item after lots and lots of grinding for it. I play in the Underdark, and my character doesn't trust Drow, so I've had to largely do this grinding alone or with, at most, 1-2 other players - most times just 1. There's also less areas in the Underdark to go, so eventually, if I want to keep getting gold, I have to go to more dangerous locales.

If I were to die and lose that epic item at this point, that would be incredibly discouraging. I would argue that some people in a similar situation may even quit over that. That is NOT something you want to happen. (NOT saying I'd quit over that, but I've known people to quit games over less.)

Meanwhile, if an epic level character who regularly throws 100k at someone to buy a Dusty Tome dies and loses a similar item, they can buy a replacement pretty damned cheaply.

well how abut a roll that determines what source your loss will come
1/5 equipped
2/5 bag 1
3/5 bag 2
4/5 bag 3
5/5 bag 4

then a roll to see what item is dropped (not sure how many slots in each bag)

1-32 slots are for each bag slot
1-12 for equipped items

I honestly don't know. This is a better solution than just removing an equipped item, I'll admit. It encourages carrying a bunch of fairly cheap items, like arrows, to increase the likelihood of not losing anything valuable.

If this was done, I'd also include Gold as a potential target to be hit by the penalty.

-----------------

One thing I'd seriously consider is a statistics penalty upon death at level 30, or something else that inhibits your ability to play the character for a while.

If there was something you could get past 30 - say, minifeats or the like - that would be a good reason to impose an XP penalty. I saw that on Skullport when I played there; there was a level cap, and past that level you could get minifeats and bonus feats, but it took a ton of grinding. But BG doesn't have that sort of system, so XP doesn't work post-30.

I'll do some thinking and see if I come up with a few ideas of my own. I probably won't - I'm not a clever man.

Khazrak wrote: It encourages carrying a bunch of fairly cheap items, like arrows, to increase the likelihood of not losing anything valuable

i would hope it would encourage people to stop dying, but maybe not.

if the answer to the question is, "that would make people just not want to die." then working back from there is where we should. imposing a handicap on ourselves is a tough ask. so it will find resistance from not only the outside but inside as well.

imposing a timered debuff upon death will cause players to log moreso then it will stop dying. opinion. im down with it as i think anything is far better than nothing, but i am not sure this has the kind of threat that losing an item does.

my idea was that if you had an empty slot it would pass it over(win). and carrying a bunch of arrows is very bad (unless you are an archer). I would pull my hair out if i had to carry a bunch of junk all the time.

another thing. I have 0 level 30 toons and i have plenty of gold. i have only been playing for a little over a year and have a few "legendary" items. there are many players with multiple level 30s that are not rich and have no "legendary" items. i would be very upset if i lost an item. even a side piece. i would think twice about pushing the limits. I would be upset if i lost an item i pulled out of a chest that was unidentified. its most likely nothing but still. it could be. you see. the rich would actually hate this alot more than the poor because we are effing greedy .

A level 30 won't be able to afford throwing 100k at random dusty tomes if he keeps losing his items.

It would require balancing the server for +3 gear, and make avenues that encourage risking your full-on best gear - either for campaign impact or for rewards, but not as mandatory.

Hoihe wrote:A level 30 won't be able to afford throwing 100k at random dusty tomes if he keeps losing his items.

It would require balancing the server for +3 gear, and make avenues that encourage risking your full-on best gear - either for campaign impact or for rewards, but not as mandatory.

or you could not die.....

were are talking about your character... dying

aaron22 wrote:

Hoihe wrote:A level 30 won't be able to afford throwing 100k at random dusty tomes if he keeps losing his items.

It would require balancing the server for +3 gear, and make avenues that encourage risking your full-on best gear - either for campaign impact or for rewards, but not as mandatory.

or you could not die.....

were are talking about your character... dying

That is a good point.

If you want to avoid dying, you'll always be at your best.

However, if dying is considered "knocked unconscious and robbed"... well, I guess that still remains true. Character doesn't know that will happen and wants to prevent death.

So... only way to do the EVE style "Only fly what you can afford to lose" itemization before any combat scenario is to metagame.

Maybe it's best to go back to a beginning of asking this question: should there be a consequence at Level 30, one that purely "punishes" the Player, or puts a "punishment" upon the Character?

For example, if a Level 30 dies, they cannot pay Myrkul, but instead forcibly acquire a Plot/Cursed Item in their Inventory, that applies at across-the-board -10 to all Abilities (with a maximum of 2 in a Stat...so no CON dumps will just outright die at spawn). This Token/Item can only then be removed by a DM, which requires Role-play. Thus, the Character is penalized, but the Player has all the options at their disposal—read: creativity—to get the Token removed.

This is consequence for the Character.

Another example, being a consequence for the Player, is if they lose an Item (a thing of ephemeral value but surely appreciated nonetheless), or, if they were forbidden to log onto that Character—mechanically prevented—for X days, or something. This is a consequence that "hurts" the Player more than the Character. It prevents Role-play, it prevents enjoyment of the Character, it taxes the Player of something they have earned ( in the example of losing an Item).

The question at top is not just applicable to Level 30s, it could be made applicable to ALL Levels, with additional avenues for removal, so that no one Player could argue " I never see a DM online," or something like that.

Steve wrote:Maybe it's best to go back to a beginning of asking this question: should there be a consequence at Level 30, one that purely "punishes" the Player, or puts a "punishment" upon the Character?

For example, if a Level 30 dies, they cannot pay Myrkul, but instead forcibly acquire a Plot/Cursed Item in their Inventory, that applies at across-the-board -10 to all Abilities (with a maximum of 2 in a Stat...so no CON dumps will just outright die at spawn). This Token/Item can only then be removed by a DM, which requires Role-play. Thus, the Character is penalized, but the Player has all the options at their disposal—read: creativity—to get the Token removed.

This is consequence for the Character.

Another example, being a consequence for the Player, is if they lose an Item (a thing of ephemeral value but surely appreciated nonetheless), or, if they were forbidden to log onto that Character—mechanically prevented—for X days, or something. This is a consequence that "hurts" the Player more than the Character. It prevents Role-play, it prevents enjoyment of the Character, it taxes the Player of something they have earned ( in the example of losing an Item).

The question at top is not just applicable to Level 30s, it could be made applicable to ALL Levels, with additional avenues for removal, so that no one Player could argue " I never see a DM online," or something like that.

I'd argue to open it up to players to remove, but make a check that it cannot be removed by the player themselves. Furthermore, make it require semi-rare components that just gold doesn't cover.

DMs is up for abuse. Player-side no cabal can force someone off their character, provided they have a varied list of friends.

Might make it an Epic Spell, and encourage healer roleplay?

Steve wrote:Maybe it's best to go back to a beginning of asking this question: should there be a consequence at Level 30, one that purely "punishes" the Player, or puts a "punishment" upon the Character?

For example, if a Level 30 dies, they cannot pay Myrkul, but instead forcibly acquire a Plot/Cursed Item in their Inventory, that applies at across-the-board -10 to all Abilities (with a maximum of 2 in a Stat...so no CON dumps will just outright die at spawn). This Token/Item can only then be removed by a DM, which requires Role-play. Thus, the Character is penalized, but the Player has all the options at their disposal—read: creativity—to get the Token removed.

This is consequence for the Character.

I've been petitioning for something like this forevvvvvverrrr. But I think it should be a blanket penalty for all characters, regardless of levels. -10 to abilities, imho, might be a tad extreme. I think a -4 to -6 penalty to all stats(or perhaps a scaling penalty depending on level), and a "fatigued" status would be enough of a penalty. Expanding on your token idea, how about putting a timer on it(again, the duration could be based on levels) before it expires(remove DM's from the equation). Then perhaps make the penalties re-apply if a restoration, or the like, is cast on the character.

Random item loss is pretty harsh, especially if it's aimed at only level 30's... I only have 2 "epic" items between my 12 characters, and I'd be plenty put-off if I lost any item as a result of a lag death.

Hoihe wrote:

Blame The Rogue wrote:i don't feel we should use mechanics to enforce rp in this situation

we, as players, know what is or isn't lost, upon death, but our characters do not

not that suicidal behavior is necessarily bad....if the character is indeed suicidal

FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!

What the player knowns = / = What the PC knows.

You know your PC will be resurrected OOCly no matter what happens.
Your PC doesn't know this.

Who makes decisions? Your PC.

It could be hypothetically possible to call suicidal level 30/post-level up behaviour metagaming, and thus rule breaking.

I agree with this 100% but metagaminh can never be fully checked. Many players don't care either. People pick races and Gods for their mechanics far more than RP so you cat really expect most players will take this into account.

In fact, if we were to use this reasoning why have death penalties at any level?

niapet wrote:In fact, if we were to use this reasoning why have death penalties at any level?

There is also this. But then there really would be absolutely no consequence to actions. Literally, because our PCs can actually visit the Fugue, we must honor the game by "pretending" there is a death as consequence of action (even if it means nothing other than lip service).

Of course, there could be no death penalties, even no real deaths—as in, do away with Fugue—but then where is there ANY sort of challenge? Die, get up, die, get up, die, get up....

In some way, I would be all for a general removal of mechanical deaths, if I knew for a fact that there were role-play deaths with perma-consequences. At the moment, I don't think this exists nor is / will it be ever forthcoming...mostly because such a situation is more to a traditional PnP D&D experience—where a DM is part-and-parcel to the game you're playing—but on BGTSCC, having a DM along at all times is just not possible.

Touri wrote:Being thrown back to farmlands or FAI is penalty enough for me. 9 0f 10 times I log off after death. The adventure failed and I feel like I lost this time. I would be fine with a 3000gp penalty as I don't care much about it anyway. So it would make not much sense to mule your gold to another pc as the 3 k you often make just by picking up gold loot on your way to death.

I wonder if some of you ever played a lvl 30 char who died several times of the bad mechanics, laggs or just player's stupidity? If not, how can you say how it feels to play and die at lvl 30? It is not like you don't be careful to survive at lvl 30. Dying is always a defeat, with or without extra penalty.

Indeed. Only reason I want a small penalty is so the free teleport to safety and be fully healed feature doesn't exist anymore. Mages and clerics are supposed to do these services.