The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

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chad878262
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by chad878262 »

Arn wrote:While you're waiting on HiPS cooldown, you're taking quite a beating while having no damage output, or at least that's been my experience
This is why you have a wand of dimension door... 0:)

Should you be caught in a situation you are unable to kite until HiPS cooldown expires you use your wand to pop to safety/break spell lock.

@Sun Wukong, I suppose that is why WoTSC eliminated the ability (or better to say they made it completely different). Folks that take things to the extreme is why every d&d book ever written says if there is something ambiguous it is left up to the DM.

A terrible DM to me is one that would take a character like rogue and make it so all the enemies are immune to everything they can do. Far better to make HiPS useful situationally than to allow it to work always and just throw enemies that are completely immune to damage done by the HiPSer. Different strokes for different folks... Establishing simple instances where HiPS is useful or not does not eliminate the ability to sneak attack just like throwing occasional undead is fine... However, one extreme or the other would make a PnP session exceedingly boring.
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by aaron22 »

in the hips convo, then would a ruling that does create a standard be appropriate? something like the area of the shadow must be at least equivalent to the area of the silhouette of the HiPSer.

as to FB/WM at the giants.. they do not hold up to those hits very well. UMD for mirrors/displacement goes far here. so its the same about needing UMD. I usually have to equip a shield+CE to handle the giants. that cuts the damage down quite a bit.

my glass cannon archer did better with mirrors and DD wands against them.
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by Arn »

DD wand advice duly noted. I'm just too miserly to get into the habit of using wands regularly. :(

But come to think of it, the occasional use of a DD wand is probably more cost-effective than frequently using heal kits on a F/FB/WM... :?
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by aaron22 »

not sure if it is still this way, but be aware that there is a CD on the DD. you cannot just spam jump all over.
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by Winterborne »

This is something I consider unbalanced by a lack of options rather than unbalanced in the "this is op/this is underpowered" sense, but I notice that every one of the combat styles (Sembian fencing, Chionthar Seagull, etc) all cater to two handed or one-handed + shield combat styles.

I would like to see some dual wielding combat styles introduced.
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chad878262
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by chad878262 »

Deadly Defense caters to TWF builds specifically, moreso than any other since the 1d4 damage applies regardless of which hand the weapon is (thus it's a flat boost to damage on all attacks). Northlander Hewing is a viable TWF option as well. TWF does not work with One Weapon, Sembian Fencing or Athkatlan Triparite because it was deemed to OP with no real downside (why wouldn't you use a 2nd weapon to get the extra benefit (AC, DEX, AB) at little to no cost (-2 AB doesn't really hurt when you only get your first 2 or 3 attacks).

Deadly Defense, as an example has made DEX Based PTWF rangers catch up somewhat to STR based. ~2.5 damage per hit may not seem like a lot, but if you take an example of a Ranger with 26 STR vs. a DEX based ranger with only 18 STR...

26 STR ranger will do +8 damage in main hand, +4 in off hand
18 STR ranger with DD will do +6.5 damage in main hand, +4.5 damage in off hand. Without DD this would be +4/+2, or half the damage of the STR ranger.

Deadly Defense is similarly a solid choice to help with making any PTWF build that doesn't have sneak dice. Before DD you really couldn't build a 'Knife Fighter' style build that did well in epics. While they are still Tier 3 at best, they can at least do some damage in epic content. You no longer 'must' make a STR based Tempest that stops at GTWF if you want a F12/XXX build that goes for TWF. You can go for 25 DEX and PTWF and with EWS/MM and DD you will do enough damage even with daggers to be viable (won't be fantastic, but it will work).

All of this said, more TWF style options would be great, but I haven't heard any suggestions for them recently. If you have some feel free to post in a new thread or send a PM to QC and/or Developers (Valefort). :)
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by Hoihe »

Invoker wrote: I'll leave this here, since this kind of question has been popping up a lot in the last months:

Scrub Mentality: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win
You call it "scrub" mentality.

I call it "Keeping things IC." Unequipping armour of any kind to cast a spell and then re-equipping it is one of the most encouraged and most OOC actions possible. Chain shirts? You could duck out of them, sure.. but it's still 10-20 seconds to unequip/re-equip and where do you put it in the meanwhile? Same for large/heavy shields and polearms. I'm yet to see any of the people who unequip armour/shields to cast and re-equip it put it on the ground, or pay it any heed.

Now, I am not bashing those people - least sacrifice/live and let live and all that... But outright advocating for people to do exactly that to justify fake difficulty is another matter entirely.

And hasn't every single change that led to more and more forcing of powerbuilds and "playing to win" justified with "you don't need to always win"? But if you don't need to always win, why must one play to win at any cost?
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by aaron22 »

pretty sure hoihe and invoker play different games here. both extremes in that side of the game as well. most of us sit somewhere in between.

*watches the oil and water mix up for a minute to see what comes out of it.
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by Steve »

Play styles ARE NOT unbalanced mechanics on BGTSCC.

Keep on track and carry on!

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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by Endelyon »

Steve wrote:Play styles ARE NOT unbalanced mechanics on BGTSCC.

Keep on track and carry on!
Yes please. I think this thread is already becoming a useful reference for the things that we need to have a look at, let's keep the focus there. :)
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by Invoker »

Endelyon wrote:
Steve wrote:Play styles ARE NOT unbalanced mechanics on BGTSCC.

Keep on track and carry on!
Yes please. I think this thread is already becoming a useful reference for the things that we need to have a look at, let's keep the focus there. :)
Actually, it hasn't.

A lot of it is far, far off the mark.

And I'm not talking about the "Equip-Unequip Armor" Hoihe mentioned, which should be considered an exploit.
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by chad878262 »

Play styles for Invoker and Hoihe aren't so different in some ways, both are fun to RP with (though I've RP'd with Invoker more, my interactions with Hoihe have given me enough to know he is dedicated to RP). Invoker is not really a fair comparison to most players in terms of his mechanical skill, just like it would be unfair to expect most players to be able to duplicate MrM3ntalist naked soloing the balor with Bards and Paladins (M3nt, where be the rogue screenshots? :P )
chad878262 wrote:Knowledge of game mechanics
Meaning if you want to get better mechanically it takes effort, just like it requires time and effort to improve your RP. It's ok to like both things, not sure why some players seem to think you either have to be a 'grinder' or a 'campfire/SIMS RP'er...

It's honestly a simple equation. When I first started playing on this server I actually had a decent build, but I was horrible at playing on the server. Mostly because I was used to single player games that are 'balanced' so the most god awful build ever can easily beat the game. It took a couple of years before I even started to figure things out to where I can generally do well in PvE with any build, and that is absolutely due to OOC understanding of the mechanics. There are MANY ways to counter what bosses will do to you. By understanding what the boss will do you can and should plan accordingly. Be your defense UMD or HiPS or spells or innate spell resistance or sky high saves/steadfast or some combination, playing on this server is more about understanding what abilities you need, not what classes make up your build. If you are going to forego HiPS, avoid UMD, have a non-spellcasting character and have a will or fortitude save below 20 then you're likely to spend a lot of time in the fugue because you have zero defense against bosses throwing save or suck spells. If you are going to make a build with 38 AC at level 30 with no UMD who refuses to use potions/items of shield/IMA/spiderskin/mirrors/displacement you'll be visiting the fugue a lot...

Builds are not about class combinations, that is flavor/the path toward what you want. In the end it is a combination of understanding your saves/resistances/AC/AB/Damage/etc... It's ok to have a weakness in any build or multiple weaknesses, but you need to understand, accept and plan on how to mitigate/avoid dying due to those weaknesses. Much like ranged builds and the complaints about stacks of ammo/cost, there are builds that are heavily dependent on consumables. This does not impact their effectiveness, but it does require the player to accept that they must find a way to make enough gold while adventuring to at a minimum replace the cost of their consumption of potions/scrolls/wands/items.

Now, there are some things that are just not compatible in D&D... A DEX/INT build wielding a large/two-handed weapon is not likely to do as well as a STR build would. Dual Wielding Great Swords is equally putting a handicap on your characters performance. Doesn't mean these things are unplayable, but if you are expecting really good results you are likely to be disappointed. If you are building an Arcane Trickster with PTWF and CL30 you are not going to be happy with your build (low BAB and very little sneak damage). You can build a PTWF Arcane Trickster, but you have to make some concessions. Like taking some Rogue levels for more sneak dice or better yet Assassin for HiPS. Your CL is not going to be 30 or you will do so little sneak damage that your PTWF is wasted.

I hope this makes sense, my intent is not to insult anyone, but to call out that often times things are considered OP in relation to other things simply because we haven't put the time/effort in to seeing what the potential is for some ability. We see a "master" use a certain class/spell/ability in the perfect situation. Just because a really great player makes something look awesome one time out of 10 doesn't mean that thing is OP, it means it was used in the right situation and/or some amount of luck was involved. And finally all too often complaints get raised about something or other being OP right after an individual loses a PvP they either expected to win or were ill prepared for. This thread is great because it's got some decent lists of things that could be considered for future changes, but it is also dangerous because some of the "OP" things listed are only OP in the right hands while for most players they are necessary tools for survival.

TL;DR - Not trying to (further) derail the topic, but just want to point out that while many useful things in this thread there are also several inaccuracies of things which are only OP situationally and/or in the hands of a very good player. Very good (mechanical) players are not overly common so care should be taken when considering nerfing all the "OP" mechanics.
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by Steve »

I could have titled this thread "Broken Mechanics," but a lot of what is presented isn't broken—Energy Immunity for example—just "unbalanced" depending on the perspective you have on it, or, whether you consider sticking with PnP is better than applying the actual environment—BGTSCC—in one's determination.

Anyway! Broken would be more along the lines of "it simply doesn't work," and few mechanics are truly broken in this way (like Companions auto-attacking when setting another Hostile, unless you have your Companion set to Defend). Maybe some wouldn't even consider that Broken, really, since an option exists that one must manually operate.

Anyway x2!! Unbalanced mechanics come down to where, for me at least, something is either a) working too well (heal kits); b) working so well that it's hard to pass up (WoD/AK as a mechanical advantage adding PrC); c) near-exploit mechanical power (HiPS releasing targets on your PC regardless of H/MS, or how Ki Step used to function before fixed).

And there are other things, as this Thread does show.

That said, the environment of BGTSCC can ALSO be designed to balance out mechanics with content, considering how really, everything is relative. Epic mechanics requires Epic content, for example. But that's A LOT of Content work. Welcome Moradin! lol.

Not that I need to give a lesson about this. And I would hope that many can agree that there exists a handful or more of Feats/PrCs/mechanics that are far, far superior than than the majority of what is available in total. And if balancing were a concern driving content in the environment, lets say a worrying concern, one would look at how so much is "passed up" by Players for the "good stuff," and try to make the lower end mechanic options a bit more...balanced...in terms of the cream of the crop stuff...which adds variety and that is always welcome.

Luckily, BGTSCC has reached a point in design/content where even a sub-par Build, even a intentionally gimped Build made in order to support a pure(ish) Role-play desire, can be viable mechanically on BGTSCC. More or less. And that is a good thing!

I'll end this by saying that unfortunately, BGTSCC is a bit unbalanced in the options of using non-combat-esque mechanics in encounters with mobs/NPCs on the Server, versus what Combat-related encounters provides as Reward/Gain. You know, you can't be a Frost Mage with high Diplomacy and go talk with the Frost Giant King, and negotiate a whatever and gain the same Rewards as if you slay him and all his minions.

Yes, this is a borderline "mechanics" issue, but our PCs DO STILL INVEST in Skills as if they should have equal "meaning" as do Abilities/Feats/AB + AC + DMG qualities. Which is why some weeks earlier I proposed a mechanics to allow Perform (ances) receive rewards like Fishing and Pick Pocketing does, as a way to give variety to how our Characters progress via XP and Wealth.

But yeah, anyway...Heal Kits in Combat is just ludicrous!!!! :twisted:

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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by ZestyDragon »

If everything is unbalanced, then everything is balanced. Looks like this thread did what it set out to do and balanced the entire server.
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Re: The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

Unread post by aaron22 »

if player skill is a variable that makes some of this redundant or unreliable, then should we place the variable on the best possible player or the worst? the middle is a wide open area where the variable is not removed.

the best player will know how to "win" taking away even the most mundane features. the worst player can have a handful of OP features and still lose.

without removing the variable, this is like taking a classroom full of kids to the pet store and asking what kitty is the cutest.
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