The Crusader Paladin Kit Is Not Good Enough

[Atlas]

1.

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Also Crusader can be done in all the classical Paladin ways, ie full STR, CHA or going EDM. All of those are completely playable and fine.

1. No it isn't fine, that is your bias that seeps into this issue time and again.


2. Playability includes interacting with other players, not just grinding mid level to low-high level dungeons. It includes being able to do things like attend melee tournaments and win, and not get shunted by some Fighter/Weaponmaster who has existed for three months, when you have fought in ten wars etc. It should be balanced well enough so that in this instance it is the person with superior gear who is superior to account for in-game experience.

3. All of his examples are irrelevant because the Paladin was designed with the strength, and/or charisma attributes in mind. Other wise change the divine feats on the Paladin to work of strength only, and then he will be able to afford 13 intelligence and dexterity.

4. Practically not worth mentioning all things considered. It should have worked like this in the first place in fact.


The classical Paladin is the holy knight, the medieval champion who is a noble born master of melee combat and one who espouses chivalry and holiness. More than anything he fights fair and he has the power to do so in a world a scheming wizards and assassins and backstabbing mercenary scum, and this is what the arch type is meant to represent.

As it is the Crusader Paladin kit has no synergy with strength, and like everything that gets passed on BGTSCC (see people using medium weapons and shields with the Northwind Hewing feat) people are just building them like a second rate Weaponmaster build.

Now as it is BGTSCC already has its 'just slightly weaker than the rest of the team and not looking to do anything except be agreeable with everyone' Paladin type with the enhanced spell book variant. That is there for those who want to be that, and that should not impede the arch type that was meant to be a lot more than that.

The whole point of this game is to roleplay an archtype, not just choose the most obscene powerbuild you can come up with and create a semi fascade of a character that is enough to mix with most other people. Otherwise this might as well be one of the Elder Scrolls video games, which do away with class archtypes completely and are all about individual skills and abilities and mixing everything. That is the opposite of the this game is supposed to be.

The classes are meant to work as arch types in conjunction with a story narrative, not some bastardized Team Fortress ideology.

[mrm3ntalist]

If you don't take Crusader all the way to 30 to get the no-cooldown perk on Holy Sword, it goes from a "bad" kit to a "garbage" kit.

You can multi class just fine without the kit being garbage

I'm not complaining, because I choose to forgo bugging cause of how annoying it is, but it really should be acknowledged that on BGTSCC it is almost a requirement to use spells or UMD to experience all the content.

This.

Also, please just consider the fact that there are others out there whom have tried these classes and are offering unisolated feedback. Please don't outwardly dismiss the feedback and concerns, just because you may hold more information through privilege and experience.
The concerns may be valid. If there wasn't a problem... people wouldn't bring these topics up.

Its not this. Useful feedback is taken into consideration. For example Steve and whistler suggestion about having Holy Weapon scale better is something that will be looked into.

Saying that a kit is bad is just talk. Saying that a kit is bad or has a problem.... no shit. Where? Is it the AC that is low? The AB? The damage? To give you an indication of how generic some talk here, there is a problem/bug with the crusader, that no one here that used the class even noticed...

The numbers are there for everyone to see. The kit has been tested and it worked fine. The only thing left to do is to make another video of how a crusader with in game items can solo as many areas as any other 2 hander build can.

[Steve]

I want to see the video(s)!!!

[Valefort]

I'm not complaining, because I choose to forgo bugging cause of how annoying it is, but it really should be acknowledged that on BGTSCC it is almost a requirement to use spells or UMD to experience all the content.

This.

Also, please just consider the fact that there are others out there whom have tried these classes and are offering unisolated feedback. Please don't outwardly dismiss the feedback and concerns, just because you may hold more information through privilege and experience.
The concerns may be valid. If there wasn't a problem... people wouldn't bring these topics up.

The whole thread is people wanting more power for Crusader while the kit is already largely good enough for PvE content, there's no privilege or experience concern here.

The kit was made to be weaker than the other paladin variations when buffed, which I hope everyone will admit is logical. Thus if you cannot stomach playing something that is designed that way do not play it.

Since the reasoning behind how it was made is still sound and valid and since there is no actual problem in PvE but simply comparisons to other paladin variants which amount roughly to "but x is better than Crusader when buffed" then personally I will dismiss the feedback as good old power hunger, except the Holy weapon scaling which could be used to create more variety for Crusader based builds.

[Steve]

The kit was made to be weaker than the other paladin variations when buffed,

Can you give the reasoning for this, instead of just saying it was so? What was the reasoning behind making 1-out-of-4 Paladins weaker than the rest?

I've shown that one can build very good numbers for a Paladin 1 / Crusader 29 build. But if there was some intention to make a purposely weaker Paladin...I still can't resist but to ask: why?

Because for example, we could compare a Level 1 Paladin / 29 Crusador against a Fighter 30, which is only one comparison based in terms of lack of a spellbook. I can literally make an equally comparable build by the 2.

So what makes Crusader unique, especially since it has heavy RP requirements to it? And what makes is so special that is should be "weaker" than the rest?

EDIT: Cause I'd also really like for Bards, Rangers, Favored Souls to be weaker as well! Pretty please?!?

[Valefort]

"When buffed" is key here, it's weaker because it lasts forever.

[mrm3ntalist]

The kit was made to be weaker than the other paladin variations when buffed,

Can you give the reasoning for this, instead of just saying it was so? What was the reasoning behind making 1-out-of-4 Paladins weaker than the rest?

The reasoning is that you dont rely on your buffs to get the stats. When a paladin who relies on his spell book, gets dispelled or his buffs expire, he is much weaker than a crusader. This is what has been taken into consideration with the crusader and every other class PRC.

Another example is the barbarian. He is more powerfull than lets say a fighter when in rage, but less powerful when not raging.

[Steve]

Guys, one can build a Paladin 30 that is equally strong to a Crusader, BEFORE buffs: http://nwn2db.com/build/?245913

You add Paladin-specific buffs and a vanilla P30 is a killer machine.

If Crusader had a spellbook, then yeah, I agree it would buff beyond avanilla P30. But it doesn't, and no one as argued for a spellbook. Maybe some SLAs.

But if you're worried a Crusader 29 is too powerful buffed...then I guess you should OUTLAW it to group with a Cleric!

But seriously, there were plenty of suggestions that aren't Buffs, in terms of magic. But other "supernatural" improvements.

[mrm3ntalist]

How is that stronger? Dont tell me with a shield wand. From boot, the Crusader will have +6AC, +4AB, Holy sword and +3 divine damage to the unbuffed paladin 2hander build you just posted.

[Steve]

I said EQUALLY strong, then add buffs.

Crusader then is equally strong to a vanilla P30, minus those awesome buffs!

But a Crusader can get buffs by finding a Cleric! Lol. And a vanilla P30 can ALSO get those Cleric buffs as well.

So what were you trying to prevent? A Crusader kit that can solo the Server? I totally agree with you M3nt that the Crusader has good numbers...but making it intentionally weaker on its own so it can't be buffed by itself or others beyond Balance is not computing here because the other Kits CAN get buffed High Heaven and totally "show up" the Crusader kit (in the end).

[Steve]

The vanilla P30 has Shield heavy +4, better Turning, better Saves.

But THEN you ADD CL30 Paladin-specific buffs to it and Voila!

Let me be clear: I'm not disagreeing with its 2handed constant power mechanics. I'm just not agreeing with intentially making it weaker because of Buffs (that it may or may not get access to IG, which is an equal argument to vanilla P30 buffs not lasting for more than 3 minutes).

[chad878262]

Simply put, a favored soul is stronger than a fighter, unless they run out of spells or get them stripped. A spell casting paladin is stronger than crusader in a similar fashion. Except spell casting paladins have fewer slots with which to reapply buffs. So the point valefort and m3nt are making is when creating the kit, the thinking is they are strong all the time, but not as strong as a fully buffed/ warded counterpart.

[mrm3ntalist]

The vanilla P30 has Shield heavy +4, better Turning, better Saves.

But THEN you ADD CL30 Paladin-specific buffs to it and Voila!

Let me be clear: I'm not disagreeing with its 2handed constant power mechanics. I'm just not agreeing with intentially making it weaker because of Buffs (that it may or may not get access to IG, which is an equal argument to vanilla P30 buffs not lasting for more than 3 minutes).

It is difficult to follow this discussion because we are not on the same page.

What you describe is a generic difference between shield-and-weapon and 2handers ( see below). From the beginning of this discussion I asked the following

1a. Divinate (PvE)
1b. Cavalier (PvP)
2. Vanilla paladin
3. The paladin's warhorse
4. The paladin's trusted teenage squire

Which one of those make a better 2 hander paladin than crusader?

That was the intention. To make a viable 2 hander paladin. The end result is just that, but it still has the weaknesses of any 2hander, while still being on-par with a vanilla paladin(no kits).

On the QC team we are having discussions at times regarding different matters about mechanics. 1 or 2 weeks ago we discussed just that - whether the implementation of the new combat feats, made shield and weapon characters much more efficient than two handers. After many pages and after many builds were posted with actual numbers, we decided to leave the matter for now. ( BTW the crusader makes one of the stronger two hander builds )

The Crusader can make the best two hander paladin. There is no doubt about it. It will still have the flaws of two handers though ( glass cannons ). If and when we see that two handers are lacking too much compared to other combat styles, then changes that will affect all two handers will be made and not just the Crusader kit.

In the mean time, suggestions that basically ask for two handers to have permanent stats which are higher than shield and weapon characters are not likely to be implemented.

[Atlas]

And then someone goes and pulls up the entry on the Favoured Soul from the source books, and sees that it is actually a "support class" and was never designed to be a capable melee combatant in comparison to a fighter variant. The way multiclassing is supposed to work is if that Favoured Soul wants to be better at melee fighting he has to multiclass and thus dilute his support abilities, but overall he will end up half a melee combatant and half a support character. That is how it is supposed to work.

The same is supposed to be true for the Bard, or the Druid, etc, all the cliché niche classes on this server, and you speak of privilege or hunger for power?


A great experiment would truly be to remove all of the overpowered prestige classes on BGTSCC like the Weapon master, Frenzied Berserker, Dwarven Defender, etc, and see what happens to the server vault. Building a power build and then creating a half decent façade in which to engage others with in-game is not the order in which it is all supposed to work.

Another good one is how many people take Anointed Knight with their Barbarian or whatever just for the mechanics, when really such a character has no business whatsoever taking a prestige class such as that.

Saying that a kit is bad is just talk. Saying that a kit is bad or has a problem.... no (#2). Where? Is it the AC that is low? The AB? The damage? To give you an indication of how generic some talk here, there is a problem/bug with the crusader, that no one here that used the class even noticed...

Your numbers are irrelevant when by your own example you are building one with 13 intelligence and dexterity. If you need to build one where you have to compensate with those two attributes in place or strength or charisma, then by that measure alone it means that it is underpowered and that it underperforms.

The kit was made to be weaker than the other paladin variations when buffed, which I hope everyone will admit is logical. Thus if you cannot stomach playing something that is designed that way do not play it.

No it isn't logical at all. How is it logical for the most militaristic Paladin of the variants on BGTSCC to be the weakest variant? What would be logical is for it to be the strongest by that measure. And honestly in terms of engaging with others in the story-narrative, your Divinate and vanilla 3.5 ed. Paladin on BGTSCC are not powerful at all.

In terms of what this game is meant to be, a story driven narrative with appropriate amounts of power assigned to the appropriate roles what you are doing makes no sense whatsoever. This game isn't Team Fortress or Elder Scrolls even, it is classic DnD.

[Steve]

@Chad: I get it man! I know what is being said, that buffed Paladin is more strong for a limit, while Crusader Paladin is constantly "buffed," essentially.

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Alright M3nt, I'll bite...:

vanilla P30 2-hander no buffs:

AC:
14 + 2 (w/ DEX +3 item) + 4 AC + 8 mithral plate + 12 (natural, defl., dodge) = 40

AB:
36 + 2 (w/ STR +4 item) + 4 EB = 42

DMG:
1d8 + 12 (w/ STR +4 item * 1.5) + 4 EB = 20 avg.


Crusader 29 no buffs:

AC:
14 + 2 DEX (w/ +3 DEX) + 8 mith plate + 4 AC + 6 Crusader shield defense + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 4 dodge = 46

AB:
35 + 2 (w/ +3 STR) + 4 Epic Weapon Focus (via Crusador 21) + 5 holy sword = 46

DMG:
1d8 + 10 STR (1.5 * 7 w/ +3 STR) + 5 Holy Sword = 20 avg. (+ 2d6 vs Evil (holy sword) + 3 WIS (Crusador bonus w/ +3 WIS item = 29

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I'm not proving anything here to you NOR me, because I already agreed that Crusader has good numbers, and that those numbers are constant. HOWEVER, the Crusader can still be buffed. Not by itself, but by another PC, or UMD, or wands, whatever.

The problem is that a buffed-by-other-source Crusader is not as mechanically powerful as a buffed vanilla P30, BOTH builds limited to the buffing time limit.

Here is another comparison:

My buffed Paladin-Divinate kit:

AC:
14 + 2 (w/ DEX +4) + 4 AC bonus + 8 mith plate + 12 set = 40 (+ 2 IMA + 4 Shield Wand = 46; +2 Silverbeard = 48; + 9 Divine Shield w/ CHA buffs = 57; +2 Hvy shield + 1 Shield spell = 60 for 9 rounds).

AB:
34 + 2 (w/ STR +3) + 4 EB + 2 Heroism = 42 (+1 EB from Weapon of the Diety; +2 from Righteous Fury , +3 Divine favor, + 1 Prayer +1 Aid = 50. -6 from IPA = 44)

DMG:
1d10 + 7 (w/ STR +3) + 4 EB + 1 Anointed = 17 (+6 PA; +2 elemental weapon; + 6 w/ spells; + 14–18 EDM = 47 avg)

Two-handed = 1d10 + 13 (w/ STR +3 *1.5) + 4 EB + 1 anointed + 12 IPA + 2 elemental dmg + 6 spells + 18 EDM = 61 avg)


My fully buffed Crusader:
AC:
14 + 2 DEX (w/ +3 DEX) + 8 mith plate + 4 AC + 6 Crusader shield defense + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 4 dodge +1 One Weapon dodge AC = 47 (+2 IMA wand = 48; +7 Divine Shield for 7 rounds = 56).

AB:
35 + 2 (w/ +3 STR) + 4 Epic Weapon Focus (via Crusador 21) + 5 holy sword = 46 (40 w/ IPA; +4 Gr. Heroism pot = 44)

DMG:
1d10 katana + 10 STR (1.5 * 7 w/ +3 STR) + 5 Holy Sword = 20 avg. (+ 12 IPA + 2d6 vs Evil (holy sword) + 3 WIS (Crusador bonus w/ +3 WIS item +14 EDM (for 14 rnds ) = 55


Isn't it Invoker that always says L2P, and not "burn out" your PC's greatest strengths until actually necessary?!? In the real "game world" situations, a clever Player will not, and actually DOESN'T HAVE TO, burn out their buffs before necessary. They can sooooo easily pace themselves, even in a DM event, so that they can slay the Dragon, save the Princess, and open the treasure chest.

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I know we don't see eye-to-eye on this issue because you've already made your decision. The current iteration of Crusader is effective, but it is a bit disingenuous to say because it is the best 2-handed PALADIN, that it is fine as is. Depending on the circumstance, ON CONTEXT, actually, it isn't the best 2-handed Paladin. It is, however, totally playable.

I think it could be made better than just playable. And I'll just end my effort here to say thank you for considering to adjust the progression of Holy Sword for Crusader. Cheers.