Game Balance

[c2k]

The problem with skills and BG. Not all skills are proactive in the game, so people build their builds around the proactive skills and not the ones that need to be coded or worked into the game to have meaning. No it would be nice to have the non-proactive skills integrated more.

However, when you require it as a means to progress, you will get a lot of backlash in the suggestions forum. People will feel "cheated" that this obstacle was placed there and complain about how their character is denied a facet of the adventuring experience. Even worse, if you make an area accessible to only a few, you have an area taking up server space.

An alternative is to have these skills allow shortcuts or atmospheric blurbs, but that takes builder time and a builder willing to implement it.

[ARHicks00]

The problem with skills and BG. Not all skills are proactive in the game, so people build their builds around the proactive skills and not the ones that need to be coded or worked into the game to have meaning. No it would be nice to have the non-proactive skills integrated more.

However, when you require it as a means to progress, you will get a lot of backlash in the suggestions forum. People will feel "cheated" that this obstacle was placed there and complain about how their character is denied a facet of the adventuring experience. Even worse, if you make an area accessible to only a few, you have an area taking up server space.

An alternative is to have these skills allow shortcuts or atmospheric blurbs, but that takes builder time and a builder willing to implement it.

To me, Lore should have never been touched because all of the lores are useless except religion in regards to PrC and Arcania in regards to items. Most of the lore isn't being put to use and isn't going to anytime soon so why any have different types of lore? I think everyone should have access to lore: General, but again that is up to staff.

[Planehopper]

The various lores have been used in events, and are used with the Dusty Tome mechanics.

I would like to see an expansion of their usage, of course, but without them it was difficult to RP a specialist in a certain field, or a multitude of them, and instead everyone with "Lore" just knew everything.

I think the kobold->gibberling dungeon is one of the best I've ever seen in a number of ways, the lore nodes among them. I would use that as a model for the future.

[PiaMango]

The nerfs are a welcome sight. Why were dragon druids not touched?

I still feel there is a gap between divine casters and melee that are not barbarians or weapon masters.

[ARHicks00]

The nerfs are a welcome sight. Why were dragon druids not touched?

I still feel there is a gap between divine casters and melee that are not barbarians or weapon masters.

You mean break the game further is a welcome sight? As it has been said before, you can't balance the game. Unless we are all doing the same damage per round, can run at the same speed, can all cast spells, etc. there is no balance between classes. You just broke a classes that will later get unnerfed with enough complaints.

As for Fighter-type characters vs. caster type, specifically clerics, there will always be a gap considering clerics can buff themselves to better than any melee and heal themselves to sustain themselves. To nerf anything on them would cause them to become useless. Moreover, a nerf would just create a even bigger gap between arcane caster and divine spellcasters as well as fighter-types.

[Calen]

The issue I have with nerfing/tweaking in general is that it requires changing the design philosophy since this isn't going to be balanced by just nerfing a couple of classes nor is it going to enhance the gameplay.


Just brain storming a bit here with an action reaction and picking this as an example.


Let's look at the 3/20 rule.

Pro's

1: By streamlining building you made balancing easier.
2: People can no longer gain easy access to epic feats
3: Using ' anti rp builds' or ' power builds' became less rewarding ( I happen to be an 8 wis level 1 cleric or 1 bard level to get spellcraft/UMD)


Con's

1: By streamlining builds you took away the ability to make creative RP builds .
2: You can no longer make certain builds.
3: People found new ways to make power builds with in the 3/20 rule, the majority are casters classes.

Result:

1: Prestige classes are designed around the fact that you can dip 1 level into another class to unlock them, by adding a 3-20 rule you're basically breaking the system by its core. You devalue RP and build creativity in order to create ' balance'

2: This server has a low magic setting which makes casters (especially in epics) stronger than your average melee build and less gear depended.
Melee builds benefit more from no 3/20 build than casters as casters are bound to getting at least 26 caster level.
While the 3/20 rule (or any nerf) hits the powerbuilds it hits the less stronger builds just as hard ultimately not changing a thing in terms of balance.

The big question is , has the goal been achieved?


Just out of my head.

- Dragon druid with 55 AC , the ability to dish out storm of vengeance with a DC35+ and a dragon pet that rivals the average geared non weapon master melee build .
- I see a con hell fire warlock blasting for ridiculous amounts with 420+HP while being a tank with 52+ AC, this was not even a min maxed build.
- Mages have pets that rival the average melee build up to epics.
- Bards deal more damage than most melee builds while having party buffs and 50% concealment etc.

Long story short, it isn't even remotely balanced.

At the end of the line the 3/20 rule hasn't achieved anything aside from breaking a lot of rp/melee builds.
The balance issue lies more in the low magic setting, the way the 3/20 rule affects melee and the lack of prestige classes for melee builds in order to shine.


In order to balance this you need to resort to overhauling the whole system ,at at this point I wonder if it is worth it.
Think in the line of.

- Capping max level at 20
- Removing spell circles
- Rework HIPS and remove SD

However at this point you won't balance it by removing 2 AC from a barbarian or reduce the healing from requiem.
The imbalances are a lot bigger than just that, however if you want to equal the playing field a bit get rid of the 3/20 rule.
At best don't allow people to dip 1 cleric 1 SD.

[ARHicks00]

The issue I have with nerfing/tweaking in general is that it requires changing the design philosophy since this isn't going to be balanced by just nerfing a couple of classes nor is it going to enhance the gameplay.


Just brain storming a bit here with an action reaction and picking this as an example.


Let's look at the 3/20 rule.

Pro's

1: By streamlining building you made balancing easier.
2: People can no longer gain easy access to epic feats
3: Using ' anti rp builds' or ' power builds' became less rewarding ( I happen to be an 8 wis level 1 cleric or 1 bard level to get spellcraft/UMD)


Con's

1: By streamlining builds you took away the ability to make creative RP builds .
2: You can no longer make certain builds.
3: People found new ways to make power builds with in the 3/20 rule, the majority are casters classes.

Result:

1: Prestige classes are designed around the fact that you can dip 1 level into another class to unlock them, by adding a 3-20 rule you're basically breaking the system by it's core. You devalue RP and build creativity in order to create ' balance'

2: This server has a low magic setting which makes casters (especially in epics) stronger than your average melee build and less gear depended.
Melee builds benefit more from no 3/20 build than casters as casters are bound to getting at least 26 caster level.
While the 3/20 rule (or any nerf) hits the powerbuilds it hits the less stronger builds just as hard ultimately not changing a thing in terms of balance.

The big question is , has the goal been achieved?


Just out of my head.

- Dragon druid with 55 AC , the ability to dish out storm of vengeance with a DC35+ and a dragon pet that rivals the average geared non weapon master melee build .
- I see a con hell fire warlock blasting for ridiculous amounts with 420+HP while being a tank with 52+ AC, this was not even a min maxed build.
- Mages have pets that rival the average melee build up to epics.
- Bards deal more damage than most melee builds while having party buffs and 50% concealment etc.

Long story short, it isn't even remotely balanced.

At the end of the line the 3/20 rule hasn't achieved anything aside from breaking a lot of rp/melee builds.
The balance issue lies more in the low magic setting, the way the 3/20 rule affects melee and the lack of prestige classes for melee builds in order to shine.


In order to balance this you need to resort to overhauling the whole system ,at at this point I wonder if it is worth it.
Think in the line of.

- Capping max level at 20
- Removing spell circles
- Rework HIPS and remove SD

However at this point you won't balance it by removing 2 AC from a barbarian or reduce the healing from requiem.
The imbalances are a lot bigger than just that, however if you want to equal the playing field a bit get rid of the 3/20 rule.
At best don't allow people to dip 1 cleric 1 SD.

CAN WE PLEASE STICKY NOTE THIS!!!!

Also this isn't exclusive to BGTSCC.

[Steve]

Game balance, as a Goal, is totally justified.

Disagreeing with it, hellz, agreeing with it even, in blind and total way, isn't prudent, nor what is being asked.

There is one option left to naysayers: join the Quality Control team, and use facts and/or empirical experience to promote YOUR vision of BGTSCC.

The Forum is open to people presenting an argument or two, pro or against an issue. I don't think I'm the only one who has read/heard the counter argument to Game Balance, but still do not perceive a clear or definitive statement being made to end the attempt for overall, better game play.

If anything, BGTSCC needs MORE balancing, but what we unfortunately suffer is a slow system of change. Of this, we must all have some patience, because those actually doing the work are volunteers, and this extracurricular project is limited to their free time.

Fair?

[ARHicks00]

Game balance, as a Goal, is totally justified.

Disagreeing with it, hellz, agreeing with it even, in blind and total way, isn't prudent, nor what is being asked.

There is one option left to naysayers: join the Quality Control team, and use facts and/or empirical experience to promote YOUR vision of BGTSCC.

The Forum is open to people presenting an argument or two, pro or against an issue. I don't think I'm the only one who has read/heard the counter argument to Game Balance, but still do not perceive a clear or definitive statement being made to end the attempt for overall, better game play.

If anything, BGTSCC needs MORE balancing, but what we unfortunately suffer is a slow system of change. Of this, we must all have some patience, because those actually doing the work are volunteers, and this extracurricular project is limited to their free time.

Fair?

Huh? I am not sure what I iust read? The game is still imbalanced. You might be right. That Orc barbarian was blasting fireballs at me yesterday while using evasion to dodge my lightning spells from my monk. That is waaaay over powered and sone of those classes need nerfing.

[Tekill]

Those classes need nerfing.

Paladins.

[ARHicks00]

Those classes need nerfing.

Paladins.

I remember when playing Tales of Amn, a kid whined about being smite by a paladin because his evil Rogue picked a fight and instead of bobbing left, he bobbed right into his smite and was killed. After being killed, he demanded the DMs nerf smite evil.

[Steve]

Huh? I am not sure what I iust read?

I suspect it's because you don't actually read what others write...at least in any way that you leave yourself open to understanding it.

But that's just my opinion.

[c2k]

Those classes need nerfing.

Paladins.

I remember when playing Tales of Amn, a kid whined about being smite by a paladin because his evil Rogue picked a fight and instead of bobbing left, he bobbed right into his smite and was killed. After being killed, he demanded the DMs nerf smite evil.

Paladins are only OP against evil and even then the build that one shots evil requires so much investment that its not a sustainable build on this server. Besides, most characters on this server are Chaotic Neutral.

[ARHicks00]

Paladins.

I remember when playing Tales of Amn, a kid whined about being smite by a paladin because his evil Rogue picked a fight and instead of bobbing left, he bobbed right into his smite and was killed. After being killed, he demanded the DMs nerf smite evil.

Paladins are only OP against evil and even then the build that one shots evil requires so much investment that its not a sustainable build on this server. Besides, most characters on this server are Chaotic Neutral.

In my opinion, the kid was crying because he lost and thought his rogue would dominanting that guy's paladin. The kid was basing it on a low level bout he had with the paladin in question.

[cosmic ray]

The nerfs are a welcome sight. Why were dragon druids not touched?

I still feel there is a gap between divine casters and melee that are not barbarians or weapon masters.

If you nerf dragon druids, WMs and fighters will still suck. You won't have solved the existing problem and you will have created a new one.

This is the intelligence behind nerfs: make all classes equally bad.