Surfacefolk to Underdark Relations

[Balthomer]

Weird people saying there are no DMs in UD, I rember a plot being given some time ago which was dismissed by most players, then another one which I personally tried to get off the ground with 2 diff characters but people did not seem to show any interest.

Also do note that DMs look for big groups of people playing together, but I even had random DM events with only 2 people like at the begining of this month.

UD is fine, also this thread was supposed to be about UD -Surface reations, should not be derailed into the same thing again, there is even a petition thread asking for DM support in UD which DMs noticed and got some traction.

Yes, UD is like 10% of surface size, but still offers a ton for anyone, as for UD and surface relations, just depends on what you want and how you do it.

[cosmic ray]

Do you really think there exists some Staff promoted anti-Drow-on-Surface agenda?

I'm talking about the rules set in place that limit surface-underdark interaction.

This thread only further continues to prove that majority of anyone wants to keep their preferred one-sided lore of the setting that suits their character concepts and mostly discards the other, also a major part, of the lore of the setting that goes against them

Most people who complain do so with regards to OOC rules, not roleplay. Unless the OOC rules were put in place by characters.

[JIŘÍ]

Sshamath being a bad lore place? LOL, Sshamath is one of the -best- UD cities that we could have gotten, barring Eryndlyn. It literally allows for all kinds of drow faiths to exist there and try furthering their agendas- especially when the organisation has mages that are willing to support some factions within the Conclave (Since Conclave isn't a unified body of government. Folks- they are still drow that use cutthroat politics against one another to gain more influence).

There's a lot to do in the Underdark and with Sshamath. There's been a lot going on simply through House Dev'lin deciding they'll try attacking Sshamath and that generated ripples in the society of Sshamath. But nothing happens down in Underdark. Why? Maybe let's start with people sending requests to the DM Team to actually do something and achieve some roleplay that would give them a grounded standing, instead of choosing to grind all day and every day

Sshamat is not bad lore implementation is unfinished. I don't need dm doing fun for me if I am given ig tools.
Sshamat needs more city areas ruled by different factions - player run factions. Mages are too much divided into individual schools. And so on.

I ha e no issue with any lore related thing I have issue with how things are set up. I like to adventure but tell me how many dungeons can a drow fully enjoy with all benefits beside durlags tower? To go and conquer the place and open chest at the bottom when killing the boss and crap like that.

And when we grind it means we grind 24hrs a day? I didn't know you so well know how we play and what we do, thank you for telling me.

And that things were different years back, honestly I do not care I play now. I am sorry I feel silly if you imply I should worship current state of things just because it allows me semi valueble gaming experience of other part of players in the server.

[Zymth]

The thing that has always baffled me is that many are perfectly willing to follow the lore of the setting with regards to drow and automatically, with machine-like regularity, roleplay fear, hostility, apprehension, even envy of 41 SR to help keep up PvP frag count, but won't bat an eyelid at tieflings with tails, horns, blue skin, scales, red eyes, devil tattoos, fiery auras, corpse-like appearances, claws, top hats, etc. Indeed, the rare few who but show the slightest degree of discomfort may be the ones apt to receive suspicious side glances or even be accused of racism.

Seems to me there's an unfettered bias towards the surface. It's larger, DM events happen almost exclusively there, drow are treated like devils but half-devils are treated like bros (i.e. the quoted text), and I've been nagging in futility for underdark rangers to get fixed for like 8 years. Based on these observations it seems clear to me the UD has been deprioratized.

[Steve]

@cosmic: so you have issue with the Ruled I've quoted below? How would you specifically change them, then?

Surface/Underdark Travel
Characters flagged as a surface race in the Underdark, and Underdark characters on the surface, will not gain any EXP from enemy kills or loot from chests in areas that are flagged on the side that isn't theirs.

When visiting the other side, have a legitimate roleplaying reason with a starting and ending point where you have to return to your home area once your business is concluded. (Being a point of contact and negotiating matters on behalf of a faction is an example of a legitimate reason, whereas going to the other side to PvP others is an example of an unacceptable reason.) Be ready to respond to a DM when asked by one.

Having a character of one side remain on a constant/permanent basis on the other side is not permitted without prior DM approval.

Players who are found to be violating or otherwise abusing this rule will find themselves ejected back to their home area and subject to disciplinary action in extreme circumstances.

[Max Hatchet]

The thing that has always baffled me is that many are perfectly willing to follow the lore of the setting with regards to drow and automatically, with machine-like regularity, roleplay fear, hostility, apprehension, even envy of 41 SR to help keep up PvP frag count, but won't bat an eyelid at tieflings with tails, horns, blue skin, scales, red eyes, devil tattoos, fiery auras, corpse-like appearances, claws, top hats, etc. Indeed, the rare few who but show the slightest degree of discomfort may be the ones apt to receive suspicious side glances or even be accused of racism.

Seems to me there's an unfettered bias towards the surface. It's larger, DM events happen almost exclusively there, drow are treated like devils but half-devils are treated like bros (i.e. the quoted text), and I've been nagging in futility for underdark rangers to get fixed for like 8 years. Based on these observations it seems clear to me the UD has been deprioratized.

People. Come on. You know the UD player base fluctuates and sometimes there are few Drow. The Surface will always have more attention. It is not going to be a 50/50 split. Of course there is a bias towards the surface. I really dont know what you are expecting.

This is a volunteer server. Its short of DMs. In the last six months i've played MANY MANY days on the surface and had no DM attention.

Do we need a dedicated regular UD DM? Sure, it would be nice. But complaining is not going to magic one up.

[Ravial]

@cosmic ray @JIŘÍ

[Deathgrowl]

I sympathise with a lot of the concerns of the Underdark players, and especially those who want surface relations. I really do. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, I've played a moon elven eilistraeen myself for years, who became good friends with an eilistraeen drow, but is always cautious not to expose her own faith and underdark associations to people she doesn't trust, and she's very cautious about those underdark associations.

But, there are some things I feel a need to address:

Two months ago I came for a fresh and new experience. I even bought game for my close friend to cut short his excuses.

I set up donating of humble 5 dollars monthly to support server.

Then I join and first thing u hear I am cut off from 70% of game content.

Thank you! Thank you for your donations! It is fantastic that we have players like you here! Really!

But you're not cut off from 70% of the game content. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Your character is perhaps "cut off" from some of the game content (I don't know if it's as much as 70%, but it may well be!), but you are free to have as many characters as you'd like, enjoying 100% of the server's content.

Seems to me there's an unfettered bias towards the surface. It's larger, DM events happen almost exclusively there, drow are treated like devils but half-devils are treated like bros (i.e. the quoted text), and I've been nagging in futility for underdark rangers to get fixed for like 8 years. Based on these observations it seems clear to me the UD has been deprioratized.

Tieflings in 3.5 are not half-devils at all. They are practically human. Virtually all genasi, aasimar and tieflings have human parents, human grand parents, human great grand parents, human siblings, human children and human grandchildren (should they actually get children). The planetouched "gene" is random and can happen way down the line on generations.

[cosmic ray]

@Steve

Not that I think there is any relevance in my saying it, but I'd let IC constraints be the the only ones in place.

I certainly don't want to see BG city opening its arms to welcome drow and orcs. In fact, I get a little frustrated whenever my drow is easily accepted amongst strangers, not that it happens often, at least not as often as to my tirfling. I have to go out of my way md rp my tiefling as a complete and utter bitch in order to elicit the reactions from others that should come out naturally.

It's abundantly clear that, when it comes to respecting the lore of the setting with regards to infamous races, far too mny people pick and choose which "devils" to love and which to hate. I suppose we humans are just flawed that way, but at least have the decency to admit it. Don't throw sand in my eyes and try to tell me that up is down.

(That is a general statement and not directed personally at you or anyone else, Steve.)

[cosmic ray]

@cosmic ray @JIŘÍ

What is bait? Is that post just a teaser to a well thought-out argument, or is it simply the vacuous meme-posting that it appears to be, which us so ubiquitous on the Internet these days?

[Mallore]

Perhaps something that could help.

Reading through all of these issues, complaints, comments and so forth, the one area I see where we can immidiately fix is player access to content, area's and play space. I propose opening all dungeons to both groups through a small adjustment, increasing player access to the servers fuller range of content. Giving players more dugneons to explore, and areas to roleplay through. Example, the Drow/UD would be allowed to acceess the Yuan-Ti area, this would be new bosses to fight, places to level and gather treasure. This would also offer a role-play experince, "raiding the surface" in such a manner. In exchange the UD exclusive areas will also become open to the Surface as well.


How to do this with out breaking server rules, having people running all over the place and pvping? or breaking other players engagement?

I would ask that two specail carvan masters be put into the game. One in Baldurs Gate, the other in Sshamath. These special Masters, with a dialogue would bring players to the interior portion of the dungeon. Where upon the players may start their roleplay or grind and go forward enjoying server content granting a wider experince to all. Once the dungeon is complete the players speak to OOC NPC at the end of the dungeon that returns them to Sshamath or Baldurs Gate.

What happens when you run into another group? We are a community and remember we are all here for fun. In this case neither of you exist is my suggestion and you are required to ignore each other and move on. Perhaps we could develope a specail Dungeon tag, like our AFK tag? I do not think this is needed however, and just remember common kindness to all players. If players use the transitions to leave the area instead of the assigned NPC they are in violation of the rules of the server and should be a DM Matter.

Your character can not IC get to BG or Sshamath? That should be something addressed about your character and roleplay. these two locations is enough for anyone to be able to act and play. If you find it RP breaking to go to either of these locations, I would ask you to remember we are community. As such flex a bit to be able to accomidate other players, or you just default to not using those dungeons like you already are doing.


This is my suggestion to help fix some of the problems in this thread. I hope it does help and I hope it gets taken up as a serious proposal.

[Zymth]

@Steve

Not that I think there is any relevance in my saying it, but I'd let IC constraints be the the only ones in place.

Seconded. That certain creatures and treasure boxes know you're from the underdark and don't load gold or reward you for fighting them is a cure worse than the disease. It's totally immersion-breaking, destroys UD-surface RP, and shuts each side off from a good portion of the server.

[JIŘÍ]

Deathgrowl

So in short just because I play ud race I cannot enjoy dungeoning on a server who put so much effort into loading art work telling us how epic adventure this server is.

I apologise for my biting remark. But when numbers of UD players are so few as stated and content in UD so small with awareness there is no ability to add more because crashing, then keeping us from accessing rest is awknard and weird.

It also keeps us from random encounters above and below which would spin off many role play avenues for every single one from a surfacer down to a mere llothite soldier.

I have no desire for more characters. Not everyone wishs to have ten alts in ten factions hoppi g between them. I like to focus on a character and not spoil things by playing another.

[JIŘÍ]

The conflict should be rped.

You could maintain same rules as are just that opposing party that is home there should get chance out.

Ie drow group ambushes people then has to give them way out.

Surfacer ambushs UD character in UD then has to give way out.

But then you would need to role play hostility before attacking.

Both sides could enjoy spawns and dungeons on both sides.

Add much more severe penalties for light sensitive races to encourage them travel in night or nerf themselves by taking dailight feat.

That is IMHO all what needs a change. Nothing wrong with surfaces coming down but my suggestion would prevent them to come to grief low lvls and lonely characters. But they would be at the risk as UD party could not be willing to let them go without fight and vice versa.

[Deathgrowl]

As has been mentioned before, the server design is made by volunteers who do things because they enjoy doing things. They make areas for the surface because they enjoy making areas for the surface. Or they make areas for the UD because they enjoy making areas for the UD. Maybe they enjoy making areas for wherever they are most likely to be popular and used. As a sheer statistical fact based on the player base, that means the majority bulk of content will necessarily be surface content.

There have been - and currently are - drives to create more content for the underdark too.

But I gather you want to play an UD race that gets to do things on the surface. And yet again, I sympathise somewhat with your wish. But there are concerns about setting integrity involved too. Drow on the surface are very few and in this area, they are reviled by practically everyone lorewise (generally speaking, not necessarily adventurers). They struggle on the surface because they find hostility wherever they are and there's also the sun at day-time.

I get it. It feels like an artificial block set up to regulate UD races on the surface (and vice versa! The rule swings both ways!). I know. It is an artificial block. But it is deemed by most people a necessary one, to indeed preserve the setting integrity, so that drow and duergar don't become common-place on the surface. I'm not accusing you of this mindset, but there are people who would just make drow and duergar and hang out on the surface for the most trivial of reasons. And those people have in the past been numerous. These rules didn't come into place for no reason, but because of past experiences. They are the lesser of two evils.

I think Ravial mentioned the netherese maze earlier. When I started playing on the server, the netherese maze was the only way between the surface and the underdark. And there was no teleport. It formed a good, natural barrier, because the netherese maze is quite difficult (mechanical balance has changed a bit as well over the years). And when teleport was added, it remained a decent barrier, because teleporting between the surface and the underdark was set to be extra difficult.

Now, however, the difficulty is practically gone. There is no natural barrier. So an artificial one is necessary.