Richard's Big Bulk Baldur's Gate Suggestion Thread

[YourMoveHolyMan]

How about them:

1. Ethereal spells that function similar to hips but allow the casters to use wands/scrolls/etc (someone said this is doable in HiPs, its not, only heal kits are) without any chance of a detection counter. But HolyMan! You can AoE them! Well, sure. You can do it to hipsters too.

2. Casters being able to cast elemental immunity up to five times in a single rest to be completely immune to all forms of elemental damage for 24 hours.

3. GMW and Magic vestment go up to +5, lootable gear goes up to +4. GMW and magic vestment last for hours.

Yeah, HiPs isn't quite right, and there are ever debates to be had concerning the balances of it. But there are other troubles out there too.

(edited a word in the last sentence from 'is' to 'isn't')

[Snarfy]

How about them:

1. Ethereal spells that function similar to hips but allow the casters to use wands/scrolls/etc (someone said this is doable in HiPs, its not, only heal kits are) without any chance of a detection counter. But HolyMan! You can AoE them! Well, sure. You can do it to hipsters too.

2. Casters being able to cast elemental immunity up to five times in a single rest to be completely immune to all forms of elemental damage for 24 hours.

3. GMW and Magic vestment go up to +5, lootable gear goes up to +4. GMW and magic vestment last for hours.

Yeah, HiPs isn't quite right, and there are ever debates to be had concerning the balances of it. But there are other troubles out there too.

But... BUT.... my level 28 Wizard can PWN twice as much content as my level 30 HiPS'er! How dare you single out casters, sir!

Hmm, here's an idea, for any of those who do think HiPS is OP:

- Choose 5 high CR locations that you think a level 30 sneak will shine, and I will log mine on and go there OOC'ly with your character.
- Using standard 6 second HiPS-spam operating procedure, and relying ONLY on HiPS(since it is apparently over-powered), I will attempt to dominate each location.
- Then we can try the 9, and 12 second options(to the best of my ability), and even have a go with, and without buffs.
- Whoever so chooses to take me up on this offer must ensure to bring the appropriate amount of raise dead scrolls(you'll need 5, minimum), please and thanks.

[flipside43]

- Whoever so chooses to take me up on this offer must ensure to bring the appropriate amount of raise dead scrolls(you'll need 5, minimum), please and thanks.

I'll raise, just need to get those area recommendations.

[Snarfy]

I'll raise, just need to get those area recommendations.

Oh, sure, pick one of my favorite movie moments of all time to express your desire to see my HiPS'er get fugue'd repeatedly obliterate the server. I see how this is

As for areas, I can think of at least 5 where my uber-sneak will get his ass handed to him non-stop put all other characters to shame, forever and ever(amen). But, considering how intimately familiar I am with being slapped around like a red headed step child carving a 10 foot wide path of bloody carnage, severed limbs, and destruction through each of these areas, I feel it's only fair to let those who promulgate the notion of HiPSupremacy choose.

(PS. I will also, as an added incentive, try my best not to die. Win win, eh?)

[Steve]

Choose 5 high CR locations that you think a level 30 sneak will shine,

This implies we all should have equal access across the board to Class-builds that can solo epic CR content.

Bad Snarfmo, bad.

Shouldn’t it be, on a RP Server that promotes group/collaborative gameplay, that 99% of Areas for adventuring REQUIRE Parties for their respective CR? And by rights any Character 4+ levels above that CR, should receive ZERO XP, to eliminate soloing.

Or, we just accept that Rogue-based HiPSters shine in a different color, and both the mechanics and the Role-play should concentrate on THAT. Else, go play a Bardzerker.

[Theodore01]

Or just use HITS instead, its a nice feat and makes playing a rogue fun.

[Steve]

Or just use HITS instead, its a nice feat and makes playing a rogue fun.

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... he_Shadows

Though sometimes it’s difficult to know when Theo01 is being sarcastic!

[Theodore01]

I really like that feat and it's all a rogue needs if he wants some challenging gameplay-

[Hoihe]

Choose 5 high CR locations that you think a level 30 sneak will shine,

This implies we all should have equal access across the board to Class-builds that can solo epic CR content.

Bad Snarfmo, bad.

Shouldn’t it be, on a RP Server that promotes group/collaborative gameplay, that 99% of Areas for adventuring REQUIRE Parties for their respective CR? And by rights any Character 4+ levels above that CR, should receive ZERO XP, to eliminate soloing.

Or, we just accept that Rogue-based HiPSters shine in a different color, and both the mechanics and the Role-play should concentrate on THAT. Else, go play a Bardzerker.

Have fun finding a party of appropriate alignment, race, deity, temperament and level range.

It is practically impossible to tick all 5 save for an ooc friend who you happen to have rcr'd with. otherwise those who are icly suitable are +-10 levels above/under you, those at your level are all morally rotten/evil/orcs/necromancers/deities of fury or your character and them dislike/mistrust each other for other reasons.


My present guaranteed party that fits all the tick marks consists of a single wizard/rogue/arcane trickster/daggerspell and my swash/duelist/shadowdancer/wizard.

Being of size 2, it practically means both of us must be able to solo a given area to do it well. The only exception is that she can give me buffs i cant cast for a bit of extra ac and she can use magic dps to kill undead/high ac/high dr mobs for me while i dex tank the map. And tanking means being able to solo said area - you need enough dps o create aggro (able to kill enemies in roughly 4 rounds or less and enemy ab + 20 for ac + acess to mirror image/healing when even the above is not enough)


forming a proper party of 6 that are all within level range and make sense icly is practically impossible.

[Steve]

forming a proper party of 6 that are all within level range and make sense icly is practically impossible.

Oh Hoihe...we all know you Level your toons via RP XP chat anyway! *where is my blabbermouth emoji?!?*


But practically impossible is NOT impossible impossible, and still the goal should be creating/finding that group, yes?

I realize I must be quite different then the rest in that I enjoy the challenge found within this game (and Server), and when I can’t find it, I create it. But difficulties are different than impossibilities, and luckily for the community there exist options for progression that involve ZERO challenge, so in the end, we can all happily reach Level 30 and never have to worry about Loss ever again, because once you reach a Level 30, there are no more penalties, except OOC ones. But that’s another topic....

[chad878262]

This implies we all should have equal access across the board to Class-builds that can solo epic CR content.

The premise posed is that sneak builds are somehow OP so this is not a fair argument. The simple fact that Snarfy is saying he in fact *can't* solo those areas is meant (I assume) to imply that these PCs are in fact NOT OP. Of course this requires one to accept that Snarfy is any good at playing a HiPS rogue which can perhaps be assumed based on the fact that he has played one for 10 years. If someone were requesting to in fact IMPROVE said sneak builds then I would understand the argument that 'just because they can't solo everything does not mean they aren't useful in a group or that they need to be improved.' However, when the argument is they are somehow too powerful the argument falls flat. The simple fact that there are many, many, many stronger builds (with and without HiPS) should be the end of the discussion, but it never is because stealth mechanics in the engine weren't really built properly and it's difficult for most to understand what is going on under the hood.

Even with the divine power nerf and the requiem nerf, can we honestly say that Snarfy's rogue (or any other rogue type build) is going to measure up to a STR Bard or Favored Soul? (or Wizard, or Divine/Arcane Gish, or Dragon Druid, or WIS Monk, or B20/anything 10, or Con-Lock, or any of a dozen+ others?)

Or is the HiPS issue that builds that do not need and in PnP would likely never have HiPS, get it because mo' powah? Is the issue with Fighter 14/WM7/FB5/SD4 that only grabs the bare minimum 8 hide/ms to 'game' the system? Or perhaps with W26/SD4 (or pick your favorite HiPS wizard split) that uses HiPS to solve the wizards primary weakness (positioning/defense) by popping stealth, repositioning, and then continuing to save or die/blast to oblivion? If the issue is with builds that are gaming the mechanics without investing in truly being a stealth focused character, then perhaps the issue is not with HiPS, but with certain players using builds that exploit a bug (intentional or not) that makes stealth 'work' no matter what for at least 1 second, thus breaking spell lock.

Now, if the issue is with stealth based archers, then I will simply state that there are mechanics to completely shut down archers. It is up to the player(s) to figure these things out and it is up to them to use such tactics (or not).

As to HitS, I actually proposed we replace HiPS with HitS after testing Rasael's work. I *LOVE* HitS and do think it is a more fair mechanic. However, the issue is it does not work with all of the things that should make it work (such as tree's). If it did I think it would have at minimum replaced Ranger and Assassin HiPS leaving only SD with true HiPS, but that will not likely be the case.

One possibility would be to move SD HiPS to level 5, requiring an extra level or 2 of investment in the class over what most dippers take which would somewhat mess with HiPS mages and Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserkers, but would also mess with sneak attack based builds that will lose at least 1d6 extra sneak dice. Just spit balling because I am still trying to figure exactly what it is that angers some folks when it comes to HiPS.

[Steve]

This implies we all should have equal access across the board to Class-builds that can solo epic CR content.

The premise posed is that sneak builds are somehow OP so this is not a fair argument.

However, the issue is it does not work with all of the things that should make it work (such as tree's).

About these 2 things—sorry I'm cherry picking but...—It is not that HiPSing builds are OP in general, but that in particular when HiPS and archery are combined, there IS a certain OP to the mechanics. So we can definitely talk about this particularity in greater detail, and yes Chad, if you have insight on how to specifically reduce the OPnees in this regard, please share instead of tease us that you know something but We have to figure it out. Meanie.

Like we spoke of privately, Rogue HiPSters are not melee Character-builds. They just aren't. They have a different type of raison d'etre and skill set. Asking of them to be able to solo epic content or compete with other OP Character-builds (and it IS like comparing apples to oranges) is problematic at best. I think when comparing Character-Builds, it is fairer to compare the Entirety of the Class Combo, instead of just one aspect, that being in this case, melee prowess.

As for HiTS and Trees, because of memory issues for Areas, trees are not make solid placeables. But if BGTSCC even does manage to split the Server, it is entirely possible that Areas can be slowly updated to change trees to BE solid placeables, and then yes, HiTS would work fantastically.

[Druchii]

This implies we all should have equal access across the board to Class-builds that can solo epic CR content.

The premise posed is that sneak builds are somehow OP so this is not a fair argument.

However, the issue is it does not work with all of the things that should make it work (such as tree's).

About these 2 things—sorry I'm cherry picking but...—It is not that HiPSing builds are OP in general, but that in particular when HiPS and archery are combined, there IS a certain OP to the mechanics. So we can definitely talk about this particularity in greater detail, and yes Chad, if you have insight on how to specifically reduce the OPnees in this regard, please share instead of tease us that you know something but We have to figure it out. Meanie.

Like we spoke of privately, Rogue HiPSters are not melee Character-builds. They just aren't. They have a different type of raison d'etre and skill set. Asking of them to be able to solo epic content or compete with other OP Character-builds (and it IS like comparing apples to oranges) is problematic at best. I think when comparing Character-Builds, it is fairer to compare the Entirety of the Class Combo, instead of just one aspect, that being in this case, melee prowess.

As for HiTS and Trees, because of memory issues for Areas, trees are not make solid placeables. But if BGTSCC even does manage to split the Server, it is entirely possible that Areas can be slowly updated to change trees to BE solid placeables, and then yes, HiTS would work fantastically.

Will PM you Steve/Chad.

[Snarfy]

This implies we all should have equal access across the board to Class-builds that can solo epic CR content.

No, Steve, you've got it all wrong. What I'm implying here is this: If players are going to suggest making changes to ANY feat, they better have their ducks in a row, know what they're talking about, and come with more FACTS than sour grapes.
And, after 6 pages, all we have is the same old dead horse, and misinformed players making comments when they either :
A. Are too lazy to/Do not know how to invest in detection.
B. Do not know how detection mechanics work.
C. Do not know how stealth mechanics work.
D. Have never played a character with HiPS(at least into the epics).
E. Are just. plain. salty.

For example, when the OP's jumping point is this zinger...

Hide in plain sight as if functions now is horribly unbalanced- most notably in player-versus-player scenarios.

... everyone who replied should have known better. Not only is this patently false, it is irrelevant. But that didn't stop the "suggestions" and complaints from rolling on in.

Shouldn’t it be, on a RP Server that promotes group/collaborative gameplay, that 99% of Areas for adventuring REQUIRE Parties for their respective CR? And by rights any Character 4+ levels above that CR, should receive ZERO XP, to eliminate soloing.

Or, we just accept that Rogue-based HiPSters shine in a different color, and both the mechanics and the Role-play should concentrate on THAT.

If it's about groups/collaboration, how is punishing those who can't find a group going to solve anything? I'm pretty sure you know what it's like trying to group as a pre or post HiPS sneak, especially with all the full-sprint circle-grinding out there. Also, if it's about accepting that HiPS characters shine in a different color, why the 12 second timer suggestion?

Let me make something abundantly clear: Adding 3 seconds, or 6 seconds, or 30 to 45 seconds to the HiPS timer will fundamentally shift the dynamic of playing stealthy characters altogether, and not in a way that will make anyone want to play them.

Do not believe me? Here's an example of a level 30 HiPS'er taking on a CR23 or 24'ish(approximately) yellow named mob, while using HiPS as his only saving grace(since it has been so widely and repeatedly touted as game-breakingly OP).

Hidden: show

** Of note: This mob has detection scores in the 65 - 75 range.
Thus, it can reliably detect HiPS'd characters with Hide/MS scores in the 80 - 90 range.
I could have tried harder, and used consumables, but I didn't feel the need, since HiPS is just so insta-win.
FFW to 1:10 if you do not want to see the pre main event.
Also, I tried to cheat by pre-silencing, just so my server-destroying HiPS toon could at least get a few hits in...



Things you may have missed:
- The Necrolord detected my character, hence the dialogue at the start
- Something wonked out after trying to use blinding strike(when no attacks were firing)
- My character, somehow, got level drained, thus dragging his fort save down further into the toilet
- My characters blinding strike landed at the end, but that did not prevent the Necro from casting a DC 29 Wail of the Banshee
- On the last attack, my character was out of stealth for ONE SECOND** when the Necro started casting. Watch the HiPS timer.
** - now imagine you're playing your uber OP HiPS'er, and add 3, 6, 9, 30, or 45 seconds to HiPS. How do you feel?

And, before anyone says anything: Yes, I could have ran after the last attack, but likely not quick enough to get out of radius of the Wail(which is huge). I could also have tried running around the side wall(to break LOS), but the Wail's radius would have reached there too. Lastly, I could have used mantle/death ward/whatever, but no-one here seems to have a gripe with magic, only HiPS.

[Snarfy]

The premise posed is that sneak builds are somehow OP so this is not a fair argument. The simple fact that Snarfy is saying he in fact *can't* solo those areas is meant (I assume) to imply that these PCs are in fact NOT OP. Of course this requires one to accept that Snarfy is any good at playing a HiPS rogue which can perhaps be assumed based on the fact that he has played one for 10 years. If someone were requesting to in fact IMPROVE said sneak builds then I would understand the argument that 'just because they can't solo everything does not mean they aren't useful in a group or that they need to be improved.' However, when the argument is they are somehow too powerful the argument falls flat. The simple fact that there are many, many, many stronger builds (with and without HiPS) should be the end of the discussion, but it never is because stealth mechanics in the engine weren't really built properly and it's difficult for most to understand what is going on under the hood.

Even with the divine power nerf and the requiem nerf, can we honestly say that Snarfy's rogue (or any other rogue type build) is going to measure up to a STR Bard or Favored Soul? (or Wizard, or Divine/Arcane Gish, or Dragon Druid, or WIS Monk, or B20/anything 10, or Con-Lock, or any of a dozen+ others?)

Or is the HiPS issue that builds that do not need and in PnP would likely never have HiPS, get it because mo' powah? Is the issue with Fighter 14/WM7/FB5/SD4 that only grabs the bare minimum 8 hide/ms to 'game' the system? Or perhaps with W26/SD4 (or pick your favorite HiPS wizard split) that uses HiPS to solve the wizards primary weakness (positioning/defense) by popping stealth, repositioning, and then continuing to save or die/blast to oblivion? If the issue is with builds that are gaming the mechanics without investing in truly being a stealth focused character, then perhaps the issue is not with HiPS, but with certain players using builds that exploit a bug (intentional or not) that makes stealth 'work' no matter what for at least 1 second, thus breaking spell lock.

Now, if the issue is with stealth based archers, then I will simply state that there are mechanics to completely shut down archers. It is up to the player(s) to figure these things out and it is up to them to use such tactics (or not).

QFFT.