Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Or we could just ban the UD and be done with it, so the issue of KoS won't even exist

Deragnost wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:29 pm Or we could just ban the UD and be done with it, so the issue of KoS won't even exist

Let me be the first(perhaps surprisingly!) to say... noooo. Thanks, but no thanks!

I would much rather us all get back to RP'ing things in a setting-appropriate manner. A pipe-dream on my part, perhaps.

On that note, and since the subject of Drizzt came up(and in a somewhat derisive fashion, I might add. I freely admit I enjoyed the Drizzt novels ), lets see how the (in)famous drows first encounter with surfacers went...
... hmm. For what it's worth(which is probably nothing), Drizzt killed Icingdeath in our current IG year.

... back on topic.

Shadowspinner70 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:49 pm I haven't commented on this thread thus far, time to do it! I'm confused as to why there's a rule in the first place. It may be more prudent to have a list of areas that you should not PvP in and if you can, where exactly you can; this shouldn't be a drow-non drow matter; it should be UNDERSTOOD that surfacers who go into the Underdark are risking their lives and drow who go to the surface do the same.

This also shouldn't be a "drow Dukes," "human matron mother," Eilistraeean, Lolthite, or whatever matter.

The rule should be a reminder, not a rule, and if people ignore the reminder and their characters get curbstomped, then that's that. However, that also leaves the hole of people just coming down to gank others. Make the rule instead that before PvP, there must be RP, even an emote each. The PvP-out rule should NOT be an UD vs surface issue either, because with both rules as they are now, drow on the surface do not get any PvP out. Their mere presence is considered KOS consent. In all honesty, I wish that the PvP out rule and KoS rules were removed and instead, there's our list of PvP courtesy guidelines and a rule to have some pertinent RP beforehand. Just one emote each!

I really appreciate when players offer alternatives, rather than hyperbole(LIKE I DO). Do you offer lessons? I'll pay in cupcakes.

Deragnost wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:29 pm Or we could just ban the UD and be done with it, so the issue of KoS won't even exist

I've said it before, but if staff could go back and remove the UD player races and turn the UD into a series of dungeons, I think that would be considered.

c2k wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:02 pm I've said it before, but if staff could go back and remove the UD player races and turn the UD into a series of dungeons, I think that would be considered.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:55 pmI really appreciate when players offer alternatives, rather than hyperbole(LIKE I DO).

Damn you c2k, damn you to the Nines.

No, seriously, lets refrain from any alternatives that involve the wiping of any characters that belong to some absolutely superb players, even if it's a joke(and especially if it's not). Stahp.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:07 pm
Damn you c2k, damn you to the Nines.

No, seriously, lets refrain from any alternatives that involve the wiping of any characters that belong to some absolutely superb players, even if it's a joke(and especially if it's not). Stahp.

Don't worry, it won't happen; its far too late for that to happen. Its a time machine scenario.

Basically, look at what some people want, what others want, and jam it together but add a bit of what you want! Some inspiration from other examples helps. Also, ty for the cupcakes.

Imo, if we are to get ANYWHERE on this thread, we have to look at it via a rules perspective, and the rules on everyone, how they effect everyone. Like I said, we're not gonna get anywhere by attributing the problem to anyone except for the rule-makers themselves and those who break the rules.

Removing the KOS Rule (which is better as a guideline and warning) leaves everyone, not just drow on the surface, able to wander almost everywhere with impunity. Drow ganking newbie surfacers is just as bad as paladins ganking newbie drow or Zhents ganking newbie whoever. The RP-out would need to go with it. If Jassin would approach Aunrae and only nock his arrow, just let me respond and then we can fight or something unexpected happens. If you come out of HIPS, emote the hiss of a blade or poke the player with "So yeah, my character's gonna try to get you."

Also, let's admit it, RP outs can be ambiguous and a player might not interpret it as an out, then report the person who initiated PvP. What can be more easily tracked and are often not ambiguous are, gasp, screenshots or logs of even just one emote each!

Reasonably, drow are KOS among their own and some surfacers are KOS among their own--tread dangerous territory, both literal and proverbial, and your character tends to invite attack. Making it a rule just makes the entire thing redundant.

Also, noooooo! My UD!

Shadowspinner70 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:32 pmRemoving the KOS Rule (which is better as a guideline and warning) leaves everyone, not just drow on the surface, able to wander almost everywhere with impunity. Drow ganking newbie surfacers is just as bad as paladins ganking newbie drow or Zhents ganking newbie whoever. The RP-out would need to go with it.

JFC... this is so ahead of the curve, and light years ahead of any OOC bias in this gods-forsaken thread that it scares me. You had me at this.

Also, let's admit it, RP outs can be ambiguous and a player might not interpret it as an out.

I am not so proud that that I won't admit that... I do not have the vaguest notion what constitutes a legitimate RP/PvP out.
The entire notion is more grey than a grey slaads ass crack.

Reasonably, drow are KOS among their own and some surfacers are KOS among their own--tread dangerous territory, both literal and proverbial, and your character tends to invite attack. Making it a rule just makes the entire thing redundant.

So.... what you're essentially saying is... uhh, chads suggestion of making everyone KoS is the better way to go. (#biased #jokes!)

On a serious note, this touches(triggers, in me) on what seems to be at the crux of this suggestion.

This seems, to me, at best like a non-issue that is already addressed by the existing rules, or at worst, like a request to alter the rules based purely on OOC motives. Sorry, not sorry, I just call it like I see it.

And If planeshopper wasn't around I probably would have said something far more controversial than this (he's always watching) >.> ... <.<

I am. You are right. Lol

And so far this thread is great. *knocks on wood*

lol I was exaggerating. Some people take things way too seriously. Its simple..Long as we stay within the context (aware also) of the rules. This would not be complicated.

IC I have seen three drows on the surface two of them clear as day the other masked up. OOC i knew the masked one was a drow, but did I use that info? Nope.

Did I KOS them? No because my current rp will get screwed by doing such. And I for one support the KOS of the Surface/UD engagement. And due to other reasons which I will not explain due to the heavy meta that goes on.

Will I ever engage in a UD player on the surface KOS PVP. I already have and their was no drama about it. Players knew what could be expected. And depends on what character I'm using and RP setting etc. I dont go *hunting* for UD players in the underdark lookin for pvp. Cause for me thats just trash for rp. IF I went down below to merchant or look for goods. I do so KNOWING the risks. If I live and able to return then thats my IC story to tell. If I died cause I got found out. Well I got no reason to complain.

Now Drow surface raids is Rp in my book. Its in lore, settings etc. So yeah the surface got three choices really rp wise, be afraid, or attempt to defend the land by first offence. Or risk your own hided and attempt to make friends. There are "Choices" You as the player is suppose to choose. What happens after well we dont know unless we make the choice. Simple!

@C2k Wheres that op Weaponmaster from back in the day Long time no see!

selhan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:36 pm Now Drow surface raids is Rp in my book. Its in lore, settings etc. So yeah the surface got three choices really rp wise, be afraid, or attempt to defend the land by first offence. Or risk your own hided and attempt to make friends. There are "Choices" You as the player is suppose to choose. What happens after well we dont know unless we make the choice. Simple!

In my opinion it's a pointless debate when discussing the topic of Drow on the surface. There's KoS rules against them but they can't go to the surface without explicit RP reason, and raids are essentially banned. (Aka: Drow are KoS for a place they never go).

So the rule exists basically for nothing as it relates to Drow.

However, I agree that surface raids are more than lore appropriate and would actually make the KoS rules much more meaningful if they were allowed to happen.

Rinzler wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:09 pm However, I agree that surface raids are more than lore appropriate and would actually make the KoS rules much more meaningful if they were allowed to happen.

Surface raids would actually create a lot of interesting player tension and maybe give everyone some very interesting opportunities for RP outside the box as it were. Imagine everyone campfire chatting at night and a large group of drow hidden by magic/HiPS, pops out of the bushes and the campfire is suddenly surrounded. Regardless of who "won" that fight, it would make for some very interesting possibilities in post and definitely ratchet up the overall tension (and maybe put the fear of Drow back into the surfacers).

That said, it also requires that players not abuse it by, oh, showing up to raid every other night or jumping out of the bushes to smack a couple of poor newbies who literally just popped in from the nexus.

Could we have a DM-sanctioned raid with a bunch of whispered rumors of stirrings below/shadowy sightings of lone Drow as prologue maybe? Dunno, but I'll throw that out there for another time and thread.

KOS everywhere means players who don't like PVP for whatever reason will have a bad time. Anyone suggesting this is not considering an entire category of player who prefers cooperative gaming.

No.

I for one can't stand this kind of roleplaying and the OOC stresses that are associated with it.

Rules do not become obsolete, they just don't get used very often. Removing a rule because it "never comes up" ignores the point that some rules, like the one in question, act as deterrents to specific behaviours. Without that deterrent certain players of a certain mindset will see less cause to fear moving to the surface with their UD characters, or moving to the UD with their surface characters.

This is why it works as a rule, it rarely comes up, presents a deterrence, reflects IC reactions by surface and UD characters and is easily avoidable by those who do not wish to engage in PVP.

Again, give me one example of this rule causing an actual problem or being used for griefing. Just One.

Blackbird wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:52 pm

Rinzler wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:09 pm However, I agree that surface raids are more than lore appropriate and would actually make the KoS rules much more meaningful if they were allowed to happen.

Surface raids would actually create a lot of interesting player tension and maybe give everyone some very interesting opportunities for RP outside the box as it were. Imagine everyone campfire chatting at night and a large group of drow hidden by magic/HiPS, pops out of the bushes and the campfire is suddenly surrounded. Regardless of who "won" that fight, it would make for some very interesting possibilities in post and definitely ratchet up the overall tension (and maybe put the fear of Drow back into the surfacers).

That said, it also requires that players not abuse it by, oh, showing up to raid every other night or jumping out of the bushes to smack a couple of poor newbies who literally just popped in from the nexus.

Could we have a DM-sanctioned raid with a bunch of whispered rumors of stirrings below/shadowy sightings of lone Drow as prologue maybe? Dunno, but I'll throw that out there for another time and thread.

I would actually be for DM sanctioned surface raids and vice versa for retaliation. It would mix things up and create more dramatic tension in the setting, and if it’s sanctioned in some way only people who are interested can participate.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 am
I would actually be for DM sanctioned surface raids and vice versa for retaliation. It would mix things up and create more dramatic tension in the setting, and if it’s sanctioned in some way only people who are interested can participate.

That has happened in the past. That also became a big issue on the server when it did happen.

c2k wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:30 am

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 am
I would actually be for DM sanctioned surface raids and vice versa for retaliation. It would mix things up and create more dramatic tension in the setting, and if it’s sanctioned in some way only people who are interested can participate.

That has happened in the past. That also became a big issue on the server when it did happen.

Well I’m with the prevailing sentiment that if people can’t handle it, it’s not worth doing.

I would treat it more like a dm event where players who are participating are on a separate map. No one gets caught in the crossfire if they don’t want to be there.

On the other hand, I used to play a lot of Dark Ages of Camelot where RvR was kind of the point of the game so maybe my perception of it is colored by years of my character dying over and over at the hands of other players