Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I’ve hesitated to chime in on this thread because frankly I’ve never thought about or noticed any of my character’s ages. I presume they are whatever the default is but it’s never actually come up. I also have zero interest in any kind of romantic RP, even G rated. But I’ll happily take anyone on a loot run with me, young or old, male or female. Just don’t try to kiss me when you find that epic scimitar you’ve been looking for

But to the matter at hand, my position mostly echoes what other players have already stated, with an addendum that I’m not even sure it solves the problem you want it to solve given the setting.

A player could more than follow the letter of the law by making a spry, nubile 67 year old elf... who would probably be considered a tween by their racial standards. And play them with all the inappropriate naivety of a human tween in ‘adult’ situations. The issue of course not being the number on the character sheet but the aforementioned adult situation.

Dwarves, half eleven and IIRC plane touched have longer lifespans as well and might well hit that “tween” mark at 25.

Conversely half orcs are adults by 14 and middle aged by 30. Raising the minimum to 25 kind of condemns all half orc players to (pushing 50) in terms of physical maturity.

In a fantasy setting someone could have 25 in their character sheet but RP they drank a potion of longevity and are physically 15.

Their nubile human was rescued from a Medusa’s lair by a strapping- and oh so handsome!- adventurer. It might read as 35 in their character sheet but 20 of those years were spent as a statue...

I’m sure there is hundreds of other examples but my general point is arbitrarily adding a few years to the starting age impacts the legitimate RP of people playing brand new adventurers but does not create a tangible impediment to those using the game for inappropriate RP sessions.

In thinking through various issues related to starting ages I would recommend leaving it as intended by cannon. Even just for the sake of half orcs, which are a legitimate player race who can be meaningfully impacted RP-wise by the change.

Just to chime in with a few small points to clear some things up:

I keep seeing people mention "Why change it to 25 when people will still break the rule no matter the age?"

The reason for this is to remove vague wording that can be used in peoples character profiles or RP. It reduces the back and forth, cat and mouse skirting of the rules by using certain wording (See the medical definition of Adolescent for an example.). Does this mean we are going to run around policing peoples ages? No. But it does mean we can point to this rule when we do get these reports (Which happen way more often than people realize.) and say "Hey, you clearly broke this rule, here is your punishment" instead of having to beat around the topic with vague wordings that mean varied ranges of age. Is the age 25 set in stone? Not really I suppose. We could enact a similar effect with the age 20, it just cant be in the teenage range of years basically to avoid these sorts of issues.

Honestly I am surprised so many people are outraged by this change, in my experience and in talking to some people, the vast majority already play characters 25+ years in age, and if they dont, they are generally above 21 years. I myself even have a character who I guess is under 25 but I was still in full support of this rule change and pushed for it heavily.

An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm The reason for this is to remove vague wording that can be used in peoples character profiles or RP. It reduces the back and forth, cat and mouse skirting of the rules by using certain wording (See the medical definition of Adolescent for an example.)

I googled this out of curiosity and here's what it says:

A young person who has begun puberty but has not yet become an adult. During adolescence a child experiences physical and hormonal changes that mark the transition into adulthood. Adolescents are generally between the ages of 10 and 19 years.

Ok. First, gross.

Second, it sounds like as long as we don't try to do this creepy ERP or use these types of descriptors we won't have issues.

Just saying if you do this you should prepare yourself for the reports of people playing the forbidden age that is somewhere from 18-24.

Xorena wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:06 pm

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm The reason for this is to remove vague wording that can be used in peoples character profiles or RP. It reduces the back and forth, cat and mouse skirting of the rules by using certain wording (See the medical definition of Adolescent for an example.)

I googled this out of curiosity and here's what it says:

A young person who has begun puberty but has not yet become an adult. During adolescence a child experiences physical and hormonal changes that mark the transition into adulthood. Adolescents are generally between the ages of 10 and 19 years.

Ok. First, gross.

Second, it sounds like as long as we don't try to do this creepy ERP or use these types of descriptors we won't have issues.

Just saying if you do this you should prepare yourself for the reports of people playing the forbidden age that is somewhere from 18-24.

We will still get some reports, but likely only from people who are choosing to be creeps about it. Removing vague wording is still important IMO. This effectively rules out that sort of wording, and as you just discovered from google, there is a reason we chose ages above 19. I think ruling it to 20 is a good compromise. It removes the ability to use wording like this, but is not such a big difference from 18. Even appearance and RP wise it should have essentially no impact. Personally, I dont think we should grandfather younger characters either, but thats just my opinion.

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.

It isn't a matter of the age of a character being brought up in RP. It's a matter of the maturity of the character influencing their decisions and reactions when interacting with the world.

An 18 year old adventurer is going to be quite green, and wet behind the ears. Even considering if they had begun adventuring at the age of 15 (as per the source books), they would still be relatively new to such a life. However with the minimum age raised to 25 it's now upwards of 10 years of living that lifestyle.

It enters the realm of a backstory providing most of the maturing process. A 25 year old human adventurer will, most likely, already have fought against goblins, orcs, kobolds, gnolls, trolls, wyverns, and possibly some giants too. They will also have visited a fair bit of the world, unless bound to a specific region previously. They will have several tales under their belt to share with others; and fallen or missing companions to lament. There's very little to surprise the character at this point.

While obviously not what everyone wants to do, a sizeable portion of the player-base do want to RP their character earning their wings. As has already been pointed out several times in this thread, such is now much more difficult to do. Sure it can be further ruled that no character ever start their adventuring life before the age of 25. But that is then the exact issue raised by this: they had an adult life for at least 7 years, before something prompted them to go adventuring.

Did they sell their shop to do so? Were they married before? Did their village get ransacked by raiders, and everyone they know are now dead? . . . How do we, as players, justify our character(s) leaving an adult life behind — and more importantly, how do we make it believable to the other players?

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.

In interactions with other characters, not frequently. My character doesn't even really know her exact age.

For writing backstory, however, I consider it quite important. I have a timeline of events for my character and a consideration for what age she was at key moments in her story. And I do think how young she was at certain points is important for considering her level of maturity. Particularly as my character's story is tied to actual canon events in FR, so certain things are limited by that. My character couldn't have been too old already when the civil war started in Tethyr, for example.

When making new characters, I tend to take a lot of time working on background. And the older a character, the more background you need to have. That's more effort, more consideration for what things might have affected the character in the present, how mature they might be, etc. And that's assuming you're even wanting to RP an older character. If you're looking to RP a less-experienced character, 25 is pushing it (especially in a medieval setting). A 25-year-old character is going to be more mature and experienced than a 20-year old one. So as I've said in previous posts, I think 20-21 is an okay cut off. It leaves out the teens while still leaving open the option for younger characters. 25 is just too far for me. By that point, a character is in their mid-adulthood. For myself, while my character is above 25 now, I would not have been happy with having been forced to have created her at 25 when I started her. That would have been too old for the kind of character I was looking to play.

Looking back on the kinds of characters I tend to play, I generally have three 'tiers' of starting age I typically play in my characters. 20-24 or younger for a relatively young and inexperienced character, 28-32 for a more experienced character in their prime, and 47-50 for very experienced older veterans. Of course that guideline goes out the window when I play more long-lived races like elves and such, in which case I tend to just ballpark something that's not in the 'young' range. DnD also makes following that guideline hard because of always starting at level 1. I'd only RCR to one of the older characters, or grind their levels out OOC, because they need higher starting levels to account for their experience.

I can also point to my earlier post in relation to this.

Maybe a longer answer than you were looking for, but I ramble.

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.

My current main has been on the server for since January of 2020, so sixteen months. His age has come up in RP 5 times that I can recall. That's roughly once every three months. But even a single time over the course of years would make it relevant.

Where it really hits me personally, is how much detail I put into my characters before they are even seen on screen. My Druid is 23 now. He was 22 when I made him. And these ages were chosen for a reason, not just "I want to play a young toon that doesn't have much life experience", though that was a part of it. I spend hours upon hours of research, etc, for my toons. I plan out their backstories, what happened at what ages, give them reasons to be where they are.

As far as the "compromise" of the age of 21, we're already compromising. By the age being 18. However, the age 18 compromise is one I'm willing to make, because of modern societal standards. But having adventurers have to start at the age of 21 is a huge immersion break in a world where people can get married and start careers at the age of 15.

Even in today's world, where 18 is legal adult, many of us had already done so much by the age of 21. Some of us had already fought in wars. Some of us were married. Some of us had careers or children. Some of us were already leading others, or teaching others. Those are the years of either going to college, or "getting into the real world". But then you take that to our fantasy world, where at 21 someone has been an adult for 6 years instead of 3?

Then we get into the issue of writers. Not everyone that plays here is a good writer. And the best they can come up with is, "I just left the farm". At age 21? Now they have to write a reason why it took so long to leave the farm. And I'm not just shooting out a weak argument here for the sake of argument. I have a specific person in mind who this is a huge deal to. Like panic inducing to have to have to come up with a fleshed out backstory.

Now, would raising the starting age limit cause me to leave the server? Probably not. But if it had been in effect when I decided to come back to the server, I can easily say I'd not have come back. It would not even have crossed my mind to come back. Looking at server options, I'd have been like, "Oh, that's the one with the weird age restriction on toons."

As others have said, raising the age restriction does not solve the problem. Clarity and rigidity on the rules would solve the problem. A character seems to be underage? You say, "You're character seems to be underage. Fix it." They don't fix it? Delete the toon or ban them. Raising the age limit feels like a "we don't want to risk offending potential violators, so we're not going to deal with it by ruining possible stories and immersion".

Many others have said this already as well. But the underlying issue was not "the age of the toon". The issue was "we have a rulebreaker". We already have rules in place to handle that sort of thing. Enforcing current rules would deal with the rulebreakers; taking away options from everyone won't.

Then we get into grandfathering in current toons. Why stop there? Why not grandfather in current players? "You've been responsible and haven't been a rulebreaker, so you are allowed to make younger toons." The fact that we are allowing any grandfathering at all shows that those who have made the decision realize that it's a bad one. If it were a good one, no grandfathering would be needed. And if the rule was necessary, no grandfathering would be allowed.

A few have already offered to volunteer their time to handle these specific complaints. I'll add my name to that list. If the issue really is, "We're sick of getting these complaints" or "We don't have the manpower to handle the volume of complaints", well, the community has solved this for you by stepping up and volunteering to help.

All in all, this is a decision which will negatively impact the player base without resolving any of the issues it is attempting to.

Add a line that prevents "insinuating/implying a character is of adolescent/teen age" if we really don't need that in our rp.

yyj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:07 pm

Young Werther wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:01 pm Another server deals with similar issues by logging all communication done IG through text for DMs to review if the need arrises. I wouldn't mind this. Criminals use normal behavior to hide the criminal but I don't think outlawing normal behavior is wholesome to the community or helps much. I think this new rule misses the mark.

Last time someone suggested this...Things went south. I doubt it would be better received than this rule change.

Glowfire wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:24 pm

Rhifox wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:23 pmI would be fine with 20 or 21 personally. Ideally 20, but 21 is okay too.

This is fine by me as well. It's increasing the min PC age by 2-3 years which is better than 7 years IMO. However, I agree with Asmodea's points.


Food for thought: Minimum player age is 13 to play on BGTSCC. If the staff want older player characters, maybe consider the minimum age of players.

yyj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:26 pm

You are making a lot of assumptions, I currently RP a character on her early 20s and she is just starting out adventuring, is not married, has no children and has little experience under her bag.

Are you planning to make a new character soon? Retiring Tarina? No? So it's not affecting you, and assuming that it will affect others negatively is wrong because most people don't care that much about the age of imaginary characters that have no purpose other than to entertain us.

The purpose of this rule is very clear.

This is unnecessarily rude. Especially since this is a three page discussion where the stance of those commenting is quite clear but also, telling another player they're not allowed to have an opinion is very poor form. Players can have alts, sometimes under accounts you don't know of. Or they simply have an opinion, because they have a right to one.

---

I think all in all, only two of all the PCs I've made were over 25 years old, one who was a close to middle age drow. D&D is a game where many enjoy making younger characters, who've left home at lvl 1 in search of adventure and self-discovery.

I don't think expressing one's opinion of a situation is rude.

Tthe DM Team just offered a solution to a problem, nobody likes the solution but I think the problem it addresses is serious.

I think in the long run this ruling is better and disagreeing is not being rude. It's just pointing out how this rule isn't causing a problem directly for most people that already play on the server.

I play a young PC that has been apparently grandfathered and I wouldn't mind people telling me she has to be 25 years old now, this barely affects my roleplay at all and I cannot see this affection anyone else's negatively.

Quit while you're behind.

You're in a whole thread of players pointing out the negative impacts and controlling, puritanical look of this arbitrary ruling.

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm Just to chime in with a few small points to clear some things up:

I keep seeing people mention "Why change it to 25 when people will still break the rule no matter the age?"

The reason for this is to remove vague wording that can be used in peoples character profiles or RP. It reduces the back and forth, cat and mouse skirting of the rules by using certain wording (See the medical definition of Adolescent for an example.). Does this mean we are going to run around policing peoples ages? No. But it does mean we can point to this rule when we do get these reports (Which happen way more often than people realize.) and say "Hey, you clearly broke this rule, here is your punishment" instead of having to beat around the topic with vague wordings that mean varied ranges of age. Is the age 25 set in stone? Not really I suppose. We could enact a similar effect with the age 20, it just cant be in the teenage range of years basically to avoid these sorts of issues.

Honestly I am surprised so many people are outraged by this change, in my experience and in talking to some people, the vast majority already play characters 25+ years in age, and if they dont, they are generally above 21 years. I myself even have a character who I guess is under 25 but I was still in full support of this rule change and pushed for it heavily.

An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.

It came up all the time on both my characters for different reasons.

THANK YOU SUMMERBREEZE

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm
The reason for this is to remove vague wording that can be used in peoples character profiles or RP. It reduces the back and forth, cat and mouse skirting of the rules by using certain wording (See the medical definition of Adolescent for an example.).

This makes sense. Legally there are loop holes in so many ways. Don't believe me? Next time you get a speeding ticket read it carefully. If so much as your make and model are off on the vehicle like a Ford truck half cab or crew cab. 9/10 times you can get off Scott free by pointing out the flaw claiming its not your truck etc. ((I have done this)) wording can mean the difference of anything. the DMs are simply trying to make it easier to point this out with out changing the definition of the word.

I tend to make characters that are 19 - 23 When I roll shaman, sorcerers or warlocks because I enjoy the idea of a young adult coming to terms with their powers in an unforgiving world. It just makes for some interesting rp.

As JAG said, its still jarring to have to retcon an age I've shared in rp multiple times and in their back story. A 20 to 21 compromise would be good.

But I just want to ask - if the age of our characters isn't seen as important or doesn't come up often, then who is to say this will stop the problem people? I feel like the combined rule of "play your character sheet, no characters under 18" should be clear enough to make a ruling on warning people against it.

The fact DMs have to spend any time dealing with people who bend the rules is disappointing and a waste of resources. If this rule of 25 doesn't stop the problem then I hope we can revisit it and find a less impactful solution.

Vagrant wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:10 pm Do I have all the knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes? If the answer to the last question is no, then is it worth the emotional currency to make assumptions about what the administration/DMs are trying to do? You're not being oppressed. You're being protected. As are possible future players on this server.

Exactly... Why answering No is more important than you acknowledged... “Leaders who do not act dialogically, but insist on imposing their decisions, do not organize the people–they manipulate them. They do not liberate, nor are they liberated: they oppress.” - Paulo Feire

DM SummerBreeze wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.

Age comes up sporadically: a simple example is one Avowed of Candlekeep got a hold of 'The Roll of The Years" and ran around asking people what year they were born in so they could go: you were born in "The Year of the Fierce Falcon!" or "The Year of The Lazy Dolphin!" (There is an actual complete roll of the years... I know it's ridiculous.) Also currently the application for Candlekeep includes a question about the character's age (Alongside Deity of choice and homeland).

As it stands if someone completed the forum and put in any age under 25, or answered the inquiry about their age for the Roll of the Years joke as less than 25 I have three options: Immediately report them to staff for violation of our under-age policy. Contact them directly to inform them of the rule break and suggesting they change it as merely another Player. Ignore it entirely.

None of these three options are what I would consider good options and I am forced into an awkward corner rapidly as I am either: Reporting people for underage content which to me is a -very- serious issue and should only be reported as such. Trying to explain/enforce server rules as a player (Which sucks and is awkward and no one wants that). Or ignoring a rule and just hoping one day it won't cause a problem.

Edit: To add to this I can not -imagine- trying to explain to a new player how older players can have younger characters but they can't in the context of any of this.