Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[YYA]

Please, don't mix up "safe" areas and "neutral areas", they are totally different concepts. Safe areas are only cities, but everywhere else, it's neutral area when one can be challenged for PvP by anyone.

If we are philosophical about it, there can be a multitude of different area concepts. But if we are a bit more engineerial about it, if we consider the objective reality of it: how players actually interact -- I cannot point an actual difference between a 'Safe' and a supposed 'Neutral' area.

[DaloLorn]

Please, don't mix up "safe" areas and "neutral areas", they are totally different concepts. Safe areas are only cities, but everywhere else, it's neutral area when one can be challenged for PvP by anyone.

If we are philosophical about it, there can be a multitude of different area concepts. But if we are a bit more engineerial about it, if we consider the objective reality of it: how players actually interact -- I cannot point an actual difference between a 'Safe' and a supposed 'Neutral' area.

I can. I've been hearing a surprising amount about conflicts in the Cloakwood and Northern Sword Coast lately, and I have myself come under attack recently near the Zau'afin compound.

[EasternCheesE]

Please, don't mix up "safe" areas and "neutral areas", they are totally different concepts. Safe areas are only cities, but everywhere else, it's neutral area when one can be challenged for PvP by anyone.

If we are philosophical about it, there can be a multitude of different area concepts. But if we are a bit more engineerial about it, if we consider the objective reality of it: how players actually interact -- I cannot point an actual difference between a 'Safe' and a supposed 'Neutral' area.

Mechanically, safe zone is a place where a PC feels totally safe. Nobody can attack them without breaking server rules. Neutral zone is where PvP RP to be expected and where it can happen so one should be ready for such a possibility.
A surfacer in Sshamath can't be a target of PvP at all, since PvP is forbidden in there.
A surfacer in Underdark outside of safe zones is a subject to KoS rules and can be forced to PvP or straight assaulted without a single word.
A surfacer in Upperdark is a subject to normal PvP rules where they can consider their PvP out and choose to pick up the fight or to defuse the situation.

Currently, there is nothing like "Upperdark" area in surface. Everything dwelling in UD making a step out from Ogre caves is KoS and can be killed without a single word said. Turning part of north to neutral area would simply force same PvP rules as ones already existing in Upperdark.

[Ravial]

Just like RL countries don't have official ownership over other countries, it doesn't mean those don't fall into their sphere of interests. Other party invading one's sphere of interests will produce the conflict, even if it's an unclaimed piece of land.

That's a reasonable argument and I agree. However, my point is that Soubar isn't large or relevant enough as neither strategic nor resource settlement worthy of enough effort for a major military action behind Elturel's borders (Darkhold and Soubar on directly opposite sides of Elturel, with Triel being part of it now). Banites be banites, but let's be honest. The only major league player here is Darkhold.

And, come to think of it, Darkhold's reaction is dependant on the player leadership of the faction.

Lastly: I don't differentiate between Team Good vs Team Evil. Both camps are so finely divided between each other that there's only one team. It's called Team "What's in it for me?"

[EasternCheesE]

Just like RL countries don't have official ownership over other countries, it doesn't mean those don't fall into their sphere of interests. Other party invading one's sphere of interests will produce the conflict, even if it's an unclaimed piece of land.

That's a reasonable argument and I agree. However, my point is that Soubar isn't large or relevant enough as neither strategic nor resource settlement worthy of enough effort for a major military action behind Elturel's borders (Darkhold and Soubar on directly opposite sides of Elturel, with Triel being part of it now). Banites be banites, but let's be honest. The only major league player here is Darkhold.

And, come to think of it, Darkhold's reaction is dependant on the player leadership of the faction.

Lastly: I don't differentiate between Team Good vs Team Evil. Both camps are so finely divided between each other that there's only one team. It's called Team "What's in it for me?"

Yup, makes a lot of sense. Soubar is not only for evilers, it's mostly a place with gray morale where "brothers and sisters, we fight for right and glory, we smite evil and inflict good" is a joke if not combined with fat coin purse. I just say that every north evil faction has their interest in Soubar by nature since it's a server place to hire mercs, conclude meetings and many other things. Basically, Soubar is a hub of non-good (doesn't mean evil) RP.

[Ravial]

Pretty much, EasternCheese.

[Steve]

Everything dwelling in UD making a step out from Ogre caves is KoS and can be killed without a single word said.

This is not true.

As per Server Rules on PvP:

Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.
Characters outfitted in a way that completely hides their identifying features require the aggressor to apply normal PvP rules, regardless of which side the disguised character is from. The disguise must be complete and hoods by themselves do not count. Patterns of speech, accents, body language, and other distinctive qualities are discerned only through roleplay over time, and details such as "a funny-sounding name" or the size of the character alone do not count for the purposes of identification.

A player just cannot “gank” another player because, and this Rule above makes it REQUIRED that some form of RP and INTERACTION must proceed the attack (or, having some history between the PCs…but that usually means Players are on the same page already).

It’s not like Paladins can just camp the mouth of the Ogre Caves and smite anything that walks out from there, once identifying that there is an easy ladder leading to the UD inside!!!

[EasternCheesE]

Everything dwelling in UD making a step out from Ogre caves is KoS and can be killed without a single word said.

This is not true.

As per Server Rules on PvP:

Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.
Characters outfitted in a way that completely hides their identifying features require the aggressor to apply normal PvP rules, regardless of which side the disguised character is from. The disguise must be complete and hoods by themselves do not count. Patterns of speech, accents, body language, and other distinctive qualities are discerned only through roleplay over time, and details such as "a funny-sounding name" or the size of the character alone do not count for the purposes of identification.

A player just cannot “gank” another player because, and this Rule above makes it REQUIRED that some form of RP and INTERACTION must proceed the attack (or, having some history between the PCs…but that usually means Players are on the same page already).

It’s not like Paladins can just camp the mouth of the Ogre Caves and smite anything that walks out from there, once identifying that there is an easy ladder leading to the UD inside!!!

Well, if KoS doesn't mean "go gank ppl", then it's not a problem to rephrase it so it clearly states that straight out OOC ganking is forbidden.
I'm totally fine if my UD PC being identified as UD PC he can get into trouble because of it, cause i totally expect surface PCs to be wary of UDers even if they are not drow. This surely can end up in OOC PvP chasing, but until i face that myself, i'll be fine with it.
I myself can't invent any good way of ruling to actually make it dangerous to roam other realm while not giving potential abusers too much power to determine the PvP INs and OUTs.

[DaloLorn]

Yeaaaaah, per the wording of the rules, the only way to avoid the ganking paladin campers would be to disguise yourself thoroughly. And even then, only until the paladins started doing hood checks, like the Vallaki Garda on Ravenloft sometimes do.

Of course, we're not talking about paladin gankers camping the mouth of the ogre cave, for a zillion different reasons, but the rules do technically allow it. If KoS doesn't mean what it says it means, then that's one less topic to debate.

[EasternCheesE]

Yeaaaaah, per the wording of the rules, the only way to avoid the ganking paladin campers would be to disguise yourself thoroughly. And even then, only until the paladins started doing hood checks, like the Vallaki Garda on Ravenloft sometimes do.

Of course, we're not talking about paladin gankers camping the mouth of the ogre cave, for a zillion different reasons, but the rules do technically allow it. If KoS doesn't mean what it says it means, then that's one less topic to debate.

I just want to add that if KoS rules are not including ganking, then simply making a definition that UD ppl are allowed to go to surface north for RP and communication is a valid RP reason while going to BG or FAI or Beregost is still a no-no without a good reason like DM plot etc. It's hard to range things and they already are very unclear on what's "RP reason" is.
My UD PC visited Candlekeep because he learned about it in Soubar and had some RP about gathering specific lore. Is it a good reason to go to CK or not? He also visited Ulcaster's ruins and spent quite a time there, again, because of research on specific lore. Is it a good reason to go to surface or not, again, i don't know. I find it being good reason, someone else may find it a rule violation.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

But this tiny change is only scratching the surface (pun!), of the issue with the UD. I do not think the UD can truly function on a PG13 server. We can act sinister but we can not actually be wicked. I think that's the real reason the UD is dead IMO.
So, I do not think it will change much.

Torment and varying vile acts of the Drow cultures isn't the pinnacle of their design and doesn't require being fulfilled in order to generate an authentic experience. It is unfortunately what bubbles to the surface for many players, beyond normal elven behaviors due to how jarring those details might be but is most certainly not their biggest qualities.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I find it being good reason, someone else may find it a rule violation.

Hence this thread to bring about adjustment and clarification.

[Banovitsky]

Hello. I play mostly in UD, with a character named Urfindir. I want to see this place filled with players and as part of DEV team I'm putting in these efforts, for example, fixing many problems on the UD maps, adding navigation map-points, remaking Mist Lake map and some of other maps.

As for me, to be honest, the main problem with UD is not at all that it is impossible to get to the surface. Problem is that DMs ignore the existence of the UD in most cases. In 2020 I saw DM event in UD only once. Thanks now we had some period of activity with DM Vankwish and DM Dreamer. About the surface, well I go up during nighttime and do it quite often. And the KoS rule has never been a hindrance to any RP.

The only thing that interferes with normal interaction with the surface is the prohibition that says that we must have a goal in order to get to the surface. This wording is very vague. And as for me it's good that UD players can set their own goals and come to the surface.
Otherwise, we would have to ask permission from the DM. Which would turn into a circle of problems. You can only get to the surface with DM -> There is no DM in UD or they rarely appear -> it is impossible to get to the surface.

Summing up. I like the existing system where Drow is under the KoS rules on surface even in Soubar or bridge, it is more lore friendly, that surfacers even there will prefere attack drow. I am saddened that surface DMs do not partly link their surface plots to UD, as did DM Spartacus with the Polvich book story.

And yes, it's a pity to hear that no one plays UD at all. This is wrong. We have our own group in Discord(about 30 people) and about 10 active players.

[joleda]

I voted yes because I am an underdarkian at heart.

Why have safe areas at all? Maybe only label areas as safe for low CR zones? Epic Safe zones sound silly.

More Underdarkians on the Surface means the UD will be emptier. What is the plan in that respect?

[DaloLorn]

I voted yes because I am an underdarkian at heart.

Why have safe areas at all? Maybe only label areas as safe for low CR zones? Epic Safe zones sound silly.

More Underdarkians on the Surface means the UD will be emptier. What is the plan in that respect?

The plan in that respect is twofold:

• Going back to the analogy of the UD as BG's largest factional space: Just because people can go to places besides their guild hall (or any other faction territory) does not immediately guarantee that they will. If there are more people to RP with inside your territory, the urgency of leaving that territory diminishes accordingly.
• If UDers can RP with people outside their territory, this increases the average lifespan of a UD character. (Mine generally never lasted a month at a time, IIRC.) This in turn increases the amount of UD characters active at any given time - in other words, it increases the population of the "UD faction", which is then able to spend more time on their own turf.

It's a question of inertia, applied to faction population, with a little uncertainty fudge to cover random chance. A dead faction will tend to stay dead unless animated by an external force; a living faction will tend to stay alive until killed by an external force. Exceptions can occur, but they're called exceptions for a reason.