Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

[Ewe]

I just don't see an end to this, because answers were given and then we keep getting "yeah but" over and over. How many answers must be given until the decision is acceptable?

[DaloLorn]

So, what is it that is trying to be accomplished?
1) an overall Nerf because OP, and we don't care who takes advantage of the Duelist feats?
2) a discouragement of heavy fighters taking Duelist for basically free AC while just ignoring the rest of the class because of heavy armor and weapons?
3) a combination of nerfing because OP and wanting heavy fighter dips to be discouraged?
4) something else?

Elaborate Parry was changed to avoid armored builds taking advantage of the big boost to AC. That much is understood, agreed with, and accepted. Unarmored Duelist builds, however, have now lost AC they needed.

Was this also the intent?
Is anything planned to mitigate the impact to unarmored Duelists?

It's largely option 1, yes. (Though I think I'm with you on preferring options 2 or 3. ) Both armored and unarmored duelists were getting too much AC from Elaborate Parry as it was implemented, and there's a case to be made for them still getting too much. (See the posts by Matelener, Mentalist, etc. I had disagreed at first, but I'm not so sure anymore.)

However, to the best of my knowledge, there are no current plans to fiddle with it any further. Dae's harsh verbiage aside, he's not wrong: These things happen sometimes. They should probably happen less on a PW, because we can't expect people to RCR every 5 minutes, but it can't always be helped.

[Rhifox]

So I'll amend the original question here:

Elaborate Parry was changed to avoid armored builds taking advantage of the big boost to AC. That much is understood, agreed with, and accepted. Unarmored Duelist builds, however, have now lost AC they needed.

Was this also the intent?
Is anything planned to mitigate the impact to unarmored Duelists?

It was a mistake for me to phrase my first answer the way it did, to give the impression that was the only reason the change was made. While its use in other builds were a big reason for its reduction, that is not to say that it was not considered too high for unarmored duelists too. I would not say unarmed duelist builds have lost AC 'they needed'. They didn't have this AC before the patch. As others have said, duelist was already a good class prior to the change, and there was a lot of pushback to the +10 change at the time but I chose to put it in and see how it played out. It played out as a problem, so it was lowered.

That being said, we can certainly continue to monitor things and possibly reconsider things later, especially if the pve rework creates a different kind of build environment than the one we have right now. (Indeed, the willingness for a +10 was because of the coming pve rework, and because several other changes were meant to go in at the same time that balance it a little. As those other changes didn't go in, and as the rework has been delayed, and it has proven a problem in current content, it needed to be addressed for current content).

[Destinysdesire]

I'm tired of the accusatory tone and thinly veiled statements saying that volunteers that run the game don't know what they are doing. This doesn't foster a good community. The question was asked, Rhifox answered it multiple times over with very long posts and yet it's still not good enough and you guys keep hammering more and more. At a certain point, yes, it becomes a waste of time.

I'm going to say this as few will. I have been an Admin, I have been a Dev, I have been a DM, I have hosted a server. Yes you run a server. Though here's a little bit of feedback. YOU CAN BE WRONG!!! Just because you own a server, does not mean you can stand in the middle of it, take a big nasty shit in it, and tell people to either accept it or move on. NWN2 is a DYING game. There is LIMITED players. Is it popular. Yes, and I believe for the MOST part. The updates are good. Though there are a few updates like this one, that feel like they are punishing the players for the players that minmax builds, so the questions is, WHY are the builds necessary exactly?

The reason for such builds needs to be considered from the point of view of the minmaxer, which will hopefully be addressed in the PVE update. After specific points, you REQUIRE a minimum of 55 AC and close to 150-200 DPR to actually be viable in upper areas. <--- THIS problem needs to be addressed before you start slitting the throats of the builds. In reality, there will ALWAYS be people who manage to find a way to sneak to ungodly AC, its literally what minmaxers do. Though punishing the rest of the players for the minmaxers by slitting the throat of their pcs by repeatedly ripping apart their AC and defense while not addressing the very serious issue of every monster requiring much higher AC and AB, then coming in with "Were volunteers, if you don't like what were doing, just leave" Also does not foster a good community. Yes, you are DMs, Devs, Admin...but you are "nothing" without your player base. Those that forget that, soon join the many, MANY servers before them that are now gone forever.

[Deathgrowl]

REQUIRE a minimum of 55 AC and close to 150-200 DPR to actually be viable in upper areas.

This is categorically false. Most of these areas haven't changed for years and people managed to do them before AC was inflated to the levels it is now. I did perfectly fine on my 47 AC, 50-100 DPR paladin.

The expectation that you should be able to solo every single boss is too high of an expectation, too if that is where the argument comes from. But you can in fact solo a lot of even the higher level bosses with far less than what you're suggesting. Frost Giant King is a good example.

[artemitavik]

So I'll amend the original question here:

Elaborate Parry was changed to avoid armored builds taking advantage of the big boost to AC. That much is understood, agreed with, and accepted. Unarmored Duelist builds, however, have now lost AC they needed.

Was this also the intent?
Is anything planned to mitigate the impact to unarmored Duelists?

It was a mistake for me to phrase my first answer the way it did, to give the impression that was the only reason the change was made. While its use in other builds were a big reason for its reduction, that is not to say that it was not considered too high for unarmored duelists too. I would not say unarmed duelist builds have lost AC 'they needed'. They didn't have this AC before the patch. As others have said, duelist was already a good class prior to the change, and there was a lot of pushback to the +10 change at the time but I chose to put it in and see how it played out. It played out as a problem, so it was lowered.

That being said, we can certainly continue to monitor things and possibly reconsider things later, especially if the pve rework creates a different kind of build environment than the one we have right now. (Indeed, the willingness for a +10 was because of the coming pve rework, and because several other changes were meant to go in at the same time that balance it a little. As those other changes didn't go in, and as the rework has been delayed, and it has proven a problem in current content, it needed to be addressed for current content).

alright, cool, thanks for that clarification. I wanted to make sure my impression was correct, which it wasn't. It is intended as a blanket, overall nerf for perceived mechanical issues.

As noted, I'd still recommend making it the light armor/non-tower shield restriction only 'cause I'm like that and all, but that is the confirmation I was seeking. While I do not necessarily agree, I am satisfied with that clarification of intent, and bow out.

[Steve]

Duelist should be like in PnP, except that the AC boosts are only when the Duelist is unarmored, unemcumbered, and without a shield.

[izzul]

Duelist should be like in PnP, except that the AC boosts are only when the Duelist is unarmored, unemcumbered, and without a shield.

im still confused right now.

is it not ALL duelist must be unarmored(cloth or robe), unencumbered, and without a shield like monk/phantom or else all their benefits disabled?

[zhazz]

Duelist should be like in PnP, except that the AC boosts are only when the Duelist is unarmored, unemcumbered, and without a shield.

im still confused right now.

is it not ALL duelist must be unarmored(cloth or robe), unencumbered, and without a shield like monk/phantom or else all their benefits disabled?

Canny Defense requires unarmored, and no shield.
Precise Strike requires piercing weapon, and no off-hand.
Flourish requires piercing weapon, and no off-hand.
Elaborate Parry has no requirements.
Grace has no requirements.
Improved Reaction has no requirements.

[izzul]

Duelist should be like in PnP, except that the AC boosts are only when the Duelist is unarmored, unemcumbered, and without a shield.

im still confused right now.

is it not ALL duelist must be unarmored(cloth or robe), unencumbered, and without a shield like monk/phantom or else all their benefits disabled?

Canny Defense requires unarmored, and no shield.
Precise Strike requires piercing weapon, and no off-hand.
Flourish requires piercing weapon, and no off-hand.
Elaborate Parry has no requirements.
Grace has no requirements.
Improved Reaction has no requirements.

ahh... thank you for teaching a noob like me. gotcha!

[Steve]

Okay...that might be considered leather armor, but...major Duelist.

[Okan]

Okay...that might be considered leather armor, but...major Duelist.

I mean it makes sense for him to not utilise Canny Defense considering his intelligence score.

[Steve]

Okay...that might be considered leather armor, but...major Duelist.

I mean it makes sense for him to not utilise Canny Defense considering his intelligence score.

Ego has nothing to do with intelligence!!

[Flatted Fifth]

The same beneficial nerf could have been achieved by making elaborate parry either a flat +5 or capped by Int modifier, and have it only work when unarmored and unencumbered and not having a shield equipped.

Having duelist a class that is only effective if you get all 10 lvls is too harsh.

[Tanlaus]

Duelist should be like in PnP, except that the AC boosts are only when the Duelist is unarmored, unemcumbered, and without a shield.

im still confused right now.

is it not ALL duelist must be unarmored(cloth or robe), unencumbered, and without a shield like monk/phantom or else all their benefits disabled?

Canny Defense requires unarmored, and no shield.
Precise Strike requires piercing weapon, and no off-hand.
Flourish requires piercing weapon, and no off-hand.
Elaborate Parry has no requirements.
Grace has no requirements.
Improved Reaction has no requirements.

IIRC you can use flourish if you have an offhand weapon. It just only procs for the main hand. I specifically tested that but it was sine time ago. I’m pretty sure it’s still true but might be worth looking at again to be sure.