The State of Leveling

[blazerules]

That is an unnecessarily hostile way to go about it. The area diversity has been great but yes if it damaged the leveling experience it all comes down to the underlying issue with how it is currently structured. And unrelated changes (not done to tackle leveling) can have negative effects.

Their changes arent responsible for the leveling experience being unbearable. It's just the leveling itself has little variety and some zones that are just better than others. By no means, gods, is this a call to nerf them. That would make things worse not better. Area diversity simply broke apart some of the consistency (if you're talking about day/night spawns?).

I asked RavenCredale, a new player, why they were grinding reaching wood even though they hated it:
"It's one of the few places that gives moderately good XP in the north server. But gnolls spawn in quick so you can spend x amount of hours there just killing gnolls or run the place, loot the containers then wait til you can loot them again.

However for me, it's tedious to do. Rping with a few others makes it less of a nightmare but it still ends up threatening to put me to sleep with how dull it can get."

Sure nothing is forcing them to grind the area. But people will still grind and it's not an attitude that'll ever change. Having 2-3 viable zones per level range seems like it'd be somewhat ideal minimum that doesnt effect leveling speed itself. Especially for ECL races that have it worse. As it stands now people know what's the most viable way to get XP and do that. Because it takes ages to level sure but just more variety will make that less of a problem.

[DiceyCZ]

To give my two cents, I can see a lot of what people are talking about spread over my two characters, each about 4 years in "life". My first character never really played on lvl 30 ( due to my many RCRs as I was learning the game and mechanics), the leveling also took longer, more so because I am not a grinder and mostly RP and back then RP xp was not as good either. But she still felt relevant and I did enjoy and do a lot of RP even if mostly I was around levels 21-25.

Now my second character, Niy, spent most of those 4-5 years as a lvl 30, she was RCRed, leveling was quick every time (still did a few adjusting RCRs over the years) but it always felt like she is not good enough to do anything until she is lvl 30. And I think that feeling prevales nowadays in general. There might still be a few groups that start low lvls for the fun of catered low lvl RP among themselves but from how it seems to me ( and this is an opinion from what I can witness) until you are lvl 30 you can't really do or achieve much on the server.

Main problem with that on the server is that it also feels like we are kind of stuck in this half-way undecided state of what the server is supposed to be. Leveling is too quick for before-30 RP to matter besides character building and too slow to not feel like a chore. Most of the playerbase is shifting towards more RP focus but, but if you don't grind you don't have a way to make money to be able to do much RP, and because we have hoarders prices are...high and still have a lot of grind oriented mechanics, so if you do play mostly for RP you are dirt poor. We have player driven economy but not actually much for players to bring to economy outside of loot, and by now thanks to "sharable" storage the server is so oversaturated that it's impossible to sell anything outside truly epic rare item trading, or you are selling it for peanuts, which means others have to sell it for peanuts as well, which leads to more oversaturation, but we keep inventing gold sinks because we have a bunch of people with couple generations worth of wealth accessible on any character.

I think that if that is to improve we need to finally pick a lane and identity.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

More areas is more toast for an already spread thin butter of activity, area diversity could still come from dynamically adjusted CR for certain level ranges based on the entering players with other variables (time of day, weather, how long the place had been "grinded").

483 TRX files between the two servers, and a peak activity of mid 30s in the player count.

[Anarkitty]

To give my two cents, I can see a lot of what people are talking about spread over my two characters, each about 4 years in "life". My first character never really played on lvl 30 ( due to my many RCRs as I was learning the game and mechanics), the leveling also took longer, more so because I am not a grinder and mostly RP and back then RP xp was not as good either. But she still felt relevant and I did enjoy and do a lot of RP even if mostly I was around levels 21-25.

Now my second character, Niy, spent most of those 4-5 years as a lvl 30, she was RCRed, leveling was quick every time (still did a few adjusting RCRs over the years) but it always felt like she is not good enough to do anything until she is lvl 30. And I think that feeling prevales nowadays in general. There might still be a few groups that start low lvls for the fun of catered low lvl RP among themselves but from how it seems to me ( and this is an opinion from what I can witness) until you are lvl 30 you can't really do or achieve much on the server.

Main problem with that on the server is that it also feels like we are kind of stuck in this half-way undecided state of what the server is supposed to be. Leveling is too quick for before-30 RP to matter besides character building and too slow to not feel like a chore. Most of the playerbase is shifting towards more RP focus but, but if you don't grind you don't have a way to make money to be able to do much RP, and because we have hoarders prices are...high and still have a lot of grind oriented mechanics, so if you do play mostly for RP you are dirt poor. We have player driven economy but not actually much for players to bring to economy outside of loot, and by now thanks to "sharable" storage the server is so oversaturated that it's impossible to sell anything outside truly epic rare item trading, or you are selling it for peanuts, which means others have to sell it for peanuts as well, which leads to more oversaturation, but we keep inventing gold sinks because we have a bunch of people with couple generations worth of wealth accessible on any character.

I think that if that is to improve we need to finally pick a lane and identity.

Good points. When I played Sabel Faeria I was like level 12 when I started The Dead Crows. I was brand spanking new and had barely 4 members recruited when we got our first DM event. Back in the day BGTSCC DMs did not play around. Against a party of mid ranged characters, the DM sent a Uber epic orc at us that cut down everyone in our party in a few swings. Luckily, Sabel was able to dominate the orc's mind and tie him up to a tree - you really shouldn't build encounters that only succeed if the party has super tricks IMO. Sabel continues further to talk with the BBE, and this halfing is also Uber epic level and one shots on my character for like 200dmg! So, yes. There is a bit of a, "I need power to actually succeed and get anything done" issue. It's not a fact that you can't make a change to the world around you, there are plenty of examples of low-level characters in BGTSCC making waves over the years, but it does make it easier to do certain things when you are max level as opposed to being a relatively low-level person. The only way to fix that is to get people drawn into stories they feel invested in and balance the encounters in a way that doesn't make players think they need to grind to make an impact. Also, we should be a little more lenient on RCR's and spell swaps because there are WAAAAAY too many new options that one has to try/experiment with before one knows if it is a fit or not. I just got back and had to RCR my level 30 character twice because of all the new feats and spells. I have to wait 3 months just to fix my spellbook just because I wanted to try new stuff that ultimately didn't work the way I wanted it to, or just didn't fit the theme I was going for. Too many new options to not give the players easy 100% RCRs and the ability to switch out as many spells as needed every 30 days.

[Snarfy]

I like the suggestion of providing an introductory experience up to level 5. They should be quick levels that are driven by going to the right places, exploring them and talking to the right NPCs that will better inform you on the setting, the going ons and where to go after.

Super cool idea. If I could spitball off this a bit... how about giving new characters some class appropriate starter gear/potion(s)/scroll(s) out of the gate, and maybe even a small starter area, depending on how they arrive to the coast, that immediately engages them with a simple quest, some helpful NPC's, and maybe even some action and a few levels(IE: Their caravan or ship is waylaid on the way to whatever starting point they chose). Yada yada.

Also, and I'm totally going to necro something ancient, but is something like THIS ever going to become a possibility? Because, if it is, then you could easily substitute gold rewards with XP ones. Of course some checks and balances would need to be made regarding exploiting and running tasks for opposing factions, but I'll just leave that for greater minds to work out. At the very least, it would be something that expands upon/deviates from any aforementioned gameplay loops.

[blazerules]

Certain servers have a really good new player quest line. It rewards XP, gold and starting items. And gets the player introduced to what needs to be seen. We have the intro kid but thats not really a quest.

More areas is more toast for an already spread thin butter of activity, area diversity could still come from dynamically adjusted CR for certain level ranges based on the entering players with other variables (time of day, weather, how long the place had been "grinded").

One issue is that grinding the same place over and over again sucks. But having adjusting CR for some areas within reason could help make more areas actually viable XP wise. It's a good idea.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Also, and I'm totally going to necro something ancient, but is something like THIS ever going to become a possibility?

There hasn't been a lot of trust from staff regarding the playerbase for this sort of system, and the amount earned over time proposed in that isn't particularly good. The Vanguard paid out in gold from guild leader pockets directly, most of which was YMHM's coffers, but those rewards offered were also dependent on guild member willingness. 1200 XP isn't far from three groups of NPCs being AoE'd, but with far more effort under this system. Not saying it's bad, just the XP over time arguments wont necessarily see this as a boon.

I do think that commendations from guild leaders for a player to be awarded could be a thing, but that would just add to the already burdened intake staffside.

[blazerules]

Some of this feels a bit dramatized if I'm being honest. "Dozens of former players have told me in private that they quit because of slow leveling, I can't provide any evidence that's the case but totally trust me on it." We also don't have swaths of new players joining and quitting because the leveling is boring, aside from old players pretending to be new players I think we probably get 3-4 legitimately new people annually and probably 1-2 of them stay for some months or years.

To back the whole players that quit angle. In case it helps any.
From one of the players that did respond to me and agreed to let me share:

Hidden: show

Me: Heya. I think you played on BGTSCC the nwn2 server right? What made you quit and what were your greatest complaints?

I'm gathering info to see why people quit and what if anything can be done.

Them: Yes, for a while I played a CN priestess of Umberlee who focused more on the nature aspects, caution when encroaching onto water, and of communities coming together in worship. Did some great events with a DM who ended up quitting shortly after; plot & NPCs were then taken over by another DM who in no uncertain terms told me "no, the Church of Umberlee is an Evil faith, you're never going to convert people or improve its image", so I gave up and quit.

(this was p much in direct opposition to all the stuff I'd done with the character previously with the other DM)

Me: Any thoughts on the leveling on BGTSCC? From memory?

Them: Been a long time tbh
Tho I remember it being a very long winded process

Levelling wasn't anywhere near a main consideration for me - it was really the stasis and lack of player & character agency, especially when going for non-Big Good character angles

(at least in my experience)

Frustrating part was that I was very much going off written lore-supported things, a good part of it was inspired by more nuanced 2e Umberlee lore

(If Endelyon wants the discord conversation itself I can provide. Dont want to share identity too much in public even if they havent played for years)

Does line up with ILLY and Endelyons accounts on player retention there. The faction system will help with more player agency. Big aspect and appeal of RP PWs is being able to influence the world.

And I'll admit in this case it looks like DM inconsistency was the primary factor.

[EasternCheesE]

if someone implements the questline and text for introduction, i don't see problem implementing it.
XP values and gear is easily discussible within statff and player teams for better balance.

The real thing is making lore-friendly text and quests themselves. Adding them to module is longer, but not that hard of a job for a Dev/builder.
So if fellow players want starter quests for newbies, please compose a quest line to add.

[Endelyon]

That you are dismissing some of the criticism as over-dramatized in your earlier post tells me that you are also suffering from a measure of disconnect from the actual experience.

The only thing I'm dismissing as drama is the notion of a mass exodus of players (currently or in the past) over "boring leveling." The rest I'm taking at face value and trying my best to seriously consider how we can improve the situation.

[mrm3ntalist]

Player bleedout is caused by a number of factors, and though the mechanics is one of them, it is in my opinion is dwarfed by things like DM activity and wider community engagement. All of these are things that we need to (and will) continuously work towards improving in the coming months. I'm not trying to say that the sentiment behind this thread is wrong (especially those that have just genuinely expressed what would make the game more fun for you), I just don't see faster leveling as a magical solution to perceived population woes.

This is, at best confusing for me, at worst... it will get moderated. They say that DM activity and engagement is the cause of player bleedout, but all the actions tell otherwise. ToT for example was a great opportunity for community engagement. Instead the bgtscc community spent a couple of months dealing with the massive mechanical changes, leaving a very small window for storytelling. The DMs were there ( i remember a couple of great events from Soulcatcher and Ghost ) but the mechanical changes, overshadowed any roleplay potential. How is the removal of the scaling ( a dynamic feature in a complete static game), using sketchy statistics to justify them, help with community engagement? The removal of epic areas? The focus on changing mechanics? And slowing up leveling helps with DM activity and whatever engagement?

In short, you say one thing, but do the complete opposite.

[blazerules]

I'll be honest.

Bad leveling is probably one of the countless straws that eventually break the cammels back but there are many things that counter it.

Usually that is RP. Which is what people came here for. Be it events, guild participation, running stuff with DMs to have an effect on the world (the main point of PW imho) and so on.

We can have the best leveling experience but if those things are severely lacking people will leave. Bad leveling doesnt help but it doesnt break the deal either if everything else is working out fine.

Hell's in the case of RavenCredale and ILLY the stuff I'm running for my Guild has been the real motivator to stay it seems. Which is great because that was the intent.

But the point remains that it is hard to attribute players leaving to bad leveling. It's not great, it doesnt help, but it wont be the main reason if everything else works out. So I would be hard pressed to say anyone is wrong or "disconnected" for not thinking bad leveling is the main issue. Since it's really not.

Granted you do generally hear complaints about bad leveling but I'd imagine because that's the easiest thing to complain about. Even with the player I mentioned I remember them complaining about it BUT it wasnt memorable enough for them as a reason to leave. And they did power through it for RP stuff.

[Endelyon]

Player bleedout is caused by a number of factors, and though the mechanics is one of them, it is in my opinion is dwarfed by things like DM activity and wider community engagement. All of these are things that we need to (and will) continuously work towards improving in the coming months. I'm not trying to say that the sentiment behind this thread is wrong (especially those that have just genuinely expressed what would make the game more fun for you), I just don't see faster leveling as a magical solution to perceived population woes.

This is, at best confusing for me, at worst... it will get moderated. They say that DM activity and engagement is the cause of player bleedout, but all the actions tell otherwise. ToT for example was a great opportunity for community engagement. Instead the bgtscc community spent a couple of months dealing with the massive mechanical changes, leaving a very small window for storytelling. The DMs were there ( i remember a couple of great events from Soulcatcher and Ghost ) but the mechanical changes, overshadowed any roleplay potential. How is the removal of the scaling ( a dynamic feature in a complete static game), using sketchy statistics to justify them, help with community engagement? The removal of epic areas? The focus on changing mechanics? And slowing up leveling helps with DM activity and whatever engagement?

In short, you say one thing, but do the complete opposite.

No, you're not wrong. I was notably not in charge of that, nor the change to the exp rates, and in fact cautioned against it. I've been saying behind the scenes for a very long time that module redesign is not the answer since even if the changes are universally acclaimed it's a neutral gain in terms of player growth.

I've been admin again for less than a week, but my intention is to promote exactly the things I mentioned there.

[edmaster]

I don't feel that the xp speed is the issue. But the engagement part of the whole experiene is. The Past few months/weeks I've seen people discuss how most people who go out and level treat the server like Diablo, with a force "Hi..." before sprinting into the direction of the monsters and barely engaging in Roleplay, That's not an easily solveable issue, other than reenforcing the fact that "Rp should come first" but the damage might be done unless there is a way to enforce that fact mechanically.

I've seen the the servers i work on mentioned! So i thought I add my two cents, Leveling to 30 on Sigil requires a bit of knowledge
of the server mechanics as well as the most optimal location which can be learned in game through Role Play or randomly going to said portal on the maps as well as checking out the wiki(that is Mostly Community Managed), So a new Person can learn the ropes easily and map out their path to gain their xp either through Roleplay, events or Exploring and dungeoneerig.(One is slower than the other), with the last few 5 levels being hard to get.

But Leveling speed doesn't keep Players on, Roleplay and other Players keep them engaged in the server, whether through Events, Updates, Etc, etc. You get the idea.

[mrm3ntalist]

I’ve been around a long time, and over all those years, I’ve only managed 4 level 30 toons. I have 2 right now, and only infrequently play 1 of them.

Like I’ve said before, I seriously enjoy leveling and the role-play that can be enjoyed in the progression. I do realize that isn’t for everyone. I also am the type of player that starts a Level 1 toon about once every year, because almost every year the Server gains new Areas and mechanics that I wants enjoy, make good use of, and see how that can make the role-play more fun.

There is nothing wrong about the way steve for example choses to approach the game. In fact it is ideal. However it requires an ideal environment, with a healthy population, players that look to group and dm activity. The reality is that BG ( and most other nwn2 servers ) are not there. BG is massive and even with 30 players online it feels very lonely. For that reason, the leveling has to be engaging and there has to be a variety of maps available. When players are having fun, even when no DM is on and low population, it makes it easier to build up. For example a DM can get online throw a massive server wide event ( an attack from frost giants for example ) and throw mobs at the group - the more the merrier. Let them RP between lulls and force in a way, player characters to know each other, work with each other, which in turn makes it easier in the future when those players meet to RP with each other, since the seed was already planted.