Underdark General Discussion Thread

[mireigi]

Lambert:
I agree that there could be a place for a middleground where worlds collide, but I don't think it should become a permanent battleground (WoW-style), which is what your proposal sounds like to me. The area should promote RP for the sake RP, possibly with a neutral trade-city where characters from both worlds can meet in relative peace and secret to conduct their affairs.

Aelcar:
What I'm referring to is this:

Hidden: show

Thanks Kelsfar, I hadn't realized that the churches were treated so lowly in Sshamath, I thought I had read that their power and influence was just a little lower than the Conclave.

Q for you, are Conclave Students any different from regular magic school students? For instance, if we say our character learns at the School of Transmutation, would she be a Conclave Student or would she just be a student?

Here's a revised proposal then, taking your great information into account. All bonuses are cumulative, Arcane School Students would get the +2 bonus as well as +3 for being an arcane user.

Start with a base score of 0.
Racial Modifiers
+5 - Drow
+2 - Underdark Race

+30 - Conclave Member (non-playable as a PC)
+10 - Conclave Student
+3 - Arcane Magic wielder
+2 - Arcane Student
+2 - Established Merchant (you have your own stall/shop)
+2 - Established Trader (you trade regularly with other UD/Surface settlements)
+2- Established Slave-handler
+1 - Member of a Church with a presence in the city that's in 'good' standing (if you aren't hiding it)
+1 - High Priest
+1 - Wealthy (at least 10,000gp, and you show it)
+1 - Member of an established, influential Guild or House
+1 - Highly Ranked Member of Guild/House
+1 - Member of a house that's in favor
+1 - Famous (If there are great exploits to your name and most citizens would have at least heard of you if your name was mentioned)
+1 - Subject of favorable rumor and intrigue
+1 - For every 10 levels
+1/2 - For every +1 CHA bonus (not counting any buffs, bonuses from gear counts round down)

----
-1 - Foreigner
-1 - Member of a house that has fallen out of favor
-1 - Worshipper of a god or member of an organization that's disliked by drow society
-2 - You are the subject of ill rumor and intrigue
-2 - You have been insulted or humiliated by one of lower rank than yourself
-3 - A visible brand marking you as a slave even if you are no longer one
-4 - A member of a foreign church or organization that is hated by the people of the city
-5 - Non-contributing member of society (a pest) - includes guests


Your social class isn't tied directly to your station. It's possible to attain a very high station yet still be a 2nd or 3rd class citizen. When confronted by a person of higher social class you are expected to defer to them irregardless of their Station. Thus Station becomes important mainly when dealing with people of your own social class. In cases of violence, guards or judges will almost always rule with the higher classed citizen. Higher class citizens can even kill lower class citizens without fear of the law, though they may be required to compensate the owners of slaves or servants for their loss. Because of this you should deal with higher ranked citizens as if they will totally flip out and kill you if you anger them in the slightest.

Station only matters when dealing with people of the same social class as yourself. Higher social class automatically trumps lower social classes.

Social Class:
First Class Citizens
Conclave members & students

Second Class Citizens
Magic Users
Drow
Established Traders, Slave Handlers and Merchants

Third Class Citizens
Clergy of a permitted Church
Underdark Race, Low class Drow

Fourth Class Citizens
Non Underdark Race that has provided something of value to the city

Fifth Class Citizens
Slaves & vagrants

Let's take a stock, level 10 drow warrior with no alliegences
F'igh'ter,
2nd Class Citizen, Station Rank: 6
+5 Drow
+1 10 levels

Now Vilrae would be:
2nd Class Citizen, Station rank: 8
+2 Underdark Race
+2 Arcane School Student
+3 Arcane Magic Wielder
+1 10 levels
-1 Foreigner
She's earned some respect for herself through her magic but her 'tainted' blood is holding her back. She would be out-ranked by anyone of equal skill, though she does have some superiority over lesser ranked individuals mainly because of how highly regarded magic is in Sshammath society.

Flasmix would be:
2nd Class Citzen, Station rank: 13
+5 Drow
+1 Member of an influential Guild
+1 High Ranking Member
+3 Arcane Magic Wielder
+1 Exploits
+1 Wealth
+1 10 level
I don't give him the trader bonus because he doesn't have a stall/store, thus isn't 'established'.


Alyssia could go two ways:
2nd Class Citizen, Station Rank: 8
+5 Drow
-1 Foreigner
+1 10 levels
+3 Charisma

Or, if it's found out she is an Ellistraeean or she decides to wear her holy symbol:
3rd Class Citizen, Station Rank: 9
+5 Drow
+1 Member of a Church
+1 10 levels
+3 Charisma
-1 Foreigner

Even though her station is higher here, she's a 3rd class citizen and will be stepped on by any 1st or 2nd class citizen with no avenue of reprisal.

In any Drow city standing and appearances are paramount. Others respect and fear you because of your reputation, the house you belong to, what academy you trained at (Arach-Tinilith, Sorcere, Melee-Magthere) and your success during important missions.

Word travels fast in any Drow city, so the reputation of each and every individual would be well-known, at least among those who matter in the city. For those of you who have read the WoTSQ series, you'd know what I am talking about when I mention Ryld and his ascent from a commoner male to one who could have joined a lesser house as their weaponsmaster.

[Aelcar]

Aelcar:
What I'm referring to is this:

We do have the "Classes" (that's lore), but not the points. People went up in ranks through RP so far, and it has worked well. Do you want a point system? Personally, I am not fond of the idea. It would also be rather complicated to establish when to DETRACT points (since in this world, you lose things WAY FASTER than you gain them), and we'd also have to permakill characters at that point (for obvious reasons, because in some cases they WOULD be killed as the only mean to remove them/only reasonable outcome for their failures), so I am not particularly fond of the idea. Not very n00b-friendly, I'm afraid.

In any Drow city standing and appearances are paramount. Others respect and fear you because of your reputation, the house you belong to, what academy you trained at (Arach-Tinilith, Sorcere, Melee-Magthere) and your success during important missions.

Word travels fast in any Drow city, so the reputation of each and every individual would be well-known, at least among those who matter in the city. For those of you who have read the WoTSQ series, you'd know what I am talking about when I mention Ryld and his ascent from a commoner male to one who could have joined a lesser house as their weaponsmaster.

Wow, really nice, a weaponmaster. Good position.

Allow me to say that on this server we also have a few people who achieved a couple of things. Let me quote one or two, off the top of my head:

-) Saint Merielle (Surface): Living Saint of Ilmater (That's right. She earned a HALO).
-) Sir Jonas Rokranon (Surface): He founded a House, became a noble, and a protector of the Gate. Sounds decent.
-) Eldebryn (Underdark): He founded the 7th Circle, and he has a pretty decent influence in Sshamath.
-) Ilphryssin Arkentlar (Underdark): He is a CONCLAVE MEMBER. I think it's quite safe to say it's a moderately prestigious achievement.
-) Valshar (Underdark): He is a Weavemaster, former Eye of the 7th Circle and Steward of the School of Necromancy.

So, if you are asking whether it is possible to "earn" a higher status via IC action, from these few examples (there are MANY more), it looks like a "yes". Not only in Sshamath, but definitely ALSO there.

I hope this helps.

[mireigi]

Aelcar:
What I'm referring to is this:

We do have the "Classes" (that's lore), but not the points. People went up in ranks through RP so far, and it has worked well. Do you want a point system? Personally, I am not fond of the idea. It would also be rather complicated to establish when to DETRACT points (since in this world, you lose things WAY FASTER than you gain them), and we'd also have to permakill characters at that point (for obvious reasons, because in some cases they WOULD be killed as the only mean to remove them/only reasonable outcome for their failures), so I am not particularly fond of the idea. Not very n00b-friendly, I'm afraid.

A point system might be too complex, but perhaps some way of determining where you are in the political powerstruggles of Sshamath so you know who you can step on and who you have to bow to.

In any Drow city standing and appearances are paramount. Others respect and fear you because of your reputation, the house you belong to, what academy you trained at (Arach-Tinilith, Sorcere, Melee-Magthere) and your success during important missions.

Word travels fast in any Drow city, so the reputation of each and every individual would be well-known, at least among those who matter in the city. For those of you who have read the WoTSQ series, you'd know what I am talking about when I mention Ryld and his ascent from a commoner male to one who could have joined a lesser house as their weaponsmaster.

Wow, really nice, a weaponmaster. Good position.

Allow me to say that on this server we also have a few people who achieved a couple of things. Let me quote one or two, off the top of my head:

-) Saint Merielle (Surface): Living Saint of Ilmater (That's right. She earned a HALO).
-) Sir Jonas Rokranon (Surface): He founded a House, became a noble, and a protector of the Gate. Sounds decent.
-) Eldebryn (Underdark): He founded the 7th Circle, and he has a pretty decent influence in Sshamath.
-) Ilphryssin Arkentlar (Underdark): He is a CONCLAVE MEMBER. I think it's quite safe to say it's a moderately prestigious achievement.
-) Valshar (Underdark): He is a Weavemaster, former Eye of the 7th Circle and Steward of the School of Necromancy.

So, if you are asking whether it is possible to "earn" a higher status via IC action, from these few examples (there are MANY more), it looks like a "yes". Not only in Sshamath, but definitely ALSO there.

I hope this helps.

Earning a status through IC is something that I've always found to be the best way to set goals for yourself in the game. It doesn't matter what the status is, as long as it's something that fits your character (hero, villain, sage, mercenary, etc).

As I commented above, some indication of who you can step on would be welcome, specially for newer players who haven't been around long enough to know the exploits of others, which they would quickly learn through rumors at taverns.

[maseoo]

I dont know if the right place to post, but here is some ooc whining.

Starting in the UD is supposed to be tough, and it really is.
What makes it even more difficult though is the impossibility to do many of the quests (mushrooms, basilisk egg, svirfs plate) without invisibility.
Could potions, or at least scrolls of invisibility be added to the shops?
These quests do make the leveling up slightly easier for a newb, and when there are not many players around...

[Blackrose]

You are right maseoo, but the quests dont give too much XP, (I think they all are around 4k) and in low levels you can earn it much faster just betting XP or roleplaying.

[Servin]

Quests can give you about 8350 xp a week. Now you can easily get that 6k with invisibility of one form or another.

The trick lies in that some classes are given invisibility abilities (be it spells or sneaking) whilst some don't. Those that do not, have it easier levelling up by different means like standard hack and slash grinding.

It takes a lot of resting for a wizard to solo an area, whilst a warrior type of a char won't struggle so much. And vice versa - it takes a lot of begging for a fighter to have someone cast invisibility on him.

If we start making certain classes disposable, what would be the point in having classes in the first place?

[Storm Munin]

The only quest that any level 1 drow cannot do is the drider quest.
Well, unless someone buffs it and helps a wee bit.

Tome of Ages does require a lot of luck and planning however.


No invisibility?
Run Forrest, run!

Edit:
I didnt take the nonlolthite solution to the drider quest as all that viable because of the fact that you must somehow run to the drider TWICE, even to me thats some serious luck to accomplish at level 1. But it is correct that the quest can be done that way if incredibly lucky.

The slaves arent that bad, use the coins gained at doing the other quests to buy Droin's scarf and suitable potions making them pretty harmless unless they crowd you. Even as a wizard.

[illithid]

The only quest that any level 1 drow cannot do is the drider quest.
Well, unless someone buffs it and helps a wee bit.

Or unless you side with the drider, because lets face it, who really wants to actually help the temple..? *cough, mumble*

The hardest quest I always found at level 1 was the slaves, because you have to land 10 legitimate killing blows in a level 2 area, everything else can certainly be achieved with an attitude of run Forrest run.

[Passiflora]

The only quest that any level 1 drow cannot do is the drider quest.
Well, unless someone buffs it and helps a wee bit.

Or unless you side with the drider, because lets face it, who really wants to actually help the temple..? *cough, mumble*

The hardest quest I always found at level 1 was the slaves, because you have to land 10 legitimate killing blows in a level 2 area, everything else can certainly be achieved with an attitude of run Forrest run.

Scrolls of that flaming spell!

[maseoo]

I was wondering regarding duergar RP: is it possible to RP your char being part of the Shield Breaker clan (taking the clan name and so forth)?
The Clan is obviously mostly there for business purposes, but is it possible RP:ing being an agent of them of some sort?

[Servin]

I suppose there is nothing stopping you from doing it, given we have players of House Sshamath. My ask for that is to get to know as much about it as you can before taking up the name, so you don't go against the clan lore (if there is any).

Go for it

[maseoo]

Well below is the info available on the duergar in Sshamath, the part about duergar in the Darkspires must be the info that's also relevant for the Clan. I've not encountered the clan name in any sourcebooks about the Underdark.
I gather an important aspect of the RP involves avoiding conflict or at least maintain a smooth flow of goods and gold with the drow. Still the Clan might need servants of sorts, for instance clerics (Clerics of Laduguer for instance oversee the smithing and crafting process), but other functions like warriors/guards, ambassadors and even spies might also be relevant?
I guess the tricky part is to make sure that a PC doesn't god-mod the interests of the Clan, the Clan's policies, aims and relations, and so on.
Edit: My idea was to make a monk with decent diplomacy and detection...I've not yet fully thought out what his functions should be though.

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Duergar in Sshamath
Most Duergar are to be found in the Darkspires area of town where the metal-work and smithing occurs although some Duergar have trading relationships with the Conclave that permit them to maintain premises in the Dark Weavings Bazaar. Whereas all other non-citizen races are confined to the Darkwoods ghetto the Duergar live where they work for the most part, in the Darkspires.

In general Drow are inherently racist so they ALWAYS look down their noses at every other race (well except for some Drow that worship Ellistrae and Vhaeraun but those are special cases). The Duergar would not be tolerated in a Lolthian city as they are even more racist than the rest of the Drow population (and that's saying something). However Sshamath is ruled by a Conclave of wizards and they REALLY want those shiny magic items which the Duergar are unparalleled at making so as long as the Duergar keep turning them out the wizards will be quite happy. The Duergar (and all other races) will never garner full citizenship in the city however this is not necessarily a big setback as they would make their own alliances both within their race, between other races (svirf etc) and to whichever school of magic holds the most power. Being evil and insanely avaricious Duergar keep working for Sshamath (as opposed to their own Duergar towns) for the potential to make more money than they could at home. Indeed a large percentage of the Duergar in Sshamath have been sold into indentured service to other Duergar by their own families, such is the avaricious nature of the grey dwarves.

In theory the Conclave could just one day wake up and say "we want the Darkspires back all Duergar must leave the city" but in practice as long as the Duergar remain relatively neutral (i.e. not as a group ally themselves to single school of magic) the Conclave will keep them around for the benefits they bring to the city.
(...)
Creatures who demonstrate an aptitude for wizardry are considered free in the eyes of Sshamath law and are allowed to live albeit in a ghetto, the Darkwoods, that is prevented from getting too big. This ghetto is populated by a host of shebali (commoner) drow, rivvil (humans), svirfneblin and many other non-citizens of Sshamath.
The Duergar are the exception to this has they have forged a direct relationship with the Conclave, they maintain their own quarters in the place they work, the Darkspires.

[Servin]

Sounds like you got it all covered. Keep at it

[Empoweredfan]

Needless to say, Servin is absolutely right. =)

This is a great initiative, and more duregard in Sshamath is only a good thing. =)

[dzidek1983]

whats the best build to play in the UD... not RP wise.. just that i dont die all the time