Lore Assistance

[Sartain]

How does the legal system in Baldurs Gate work?

A DM (DM oGorgon I think) ran a trial, straight out of an american TV-series complete with prosecutor (who was also the paladin who apprehended the culprit though), defender (the defendant himself), a jury, a judge and a mob screaming for their particular brand of justice.
While it was a very entertaining event I'm curious, does regular every day trials run like this? How exactly is justice meted out in the Gate? Are there lawyers? Public prosecutors, private defense lawyers, etc?

[Rasael]

There are Always lawyers and legal representatives

I don't think there would be public prosecutors in the sense of the common criminal justice systems. What is usually the case is that the Powers that be appoint magistrates (usually given a different name), who are then charged with solving whatever cases present themselves and upholding the Law.

It is perfectly possible that Paladins or Paladin Orders are granted a licence to deal with certain kinds of crimes. But usually such a licence would stipulate that individuals can appeal their verdict in case of questionable circumstances. (i.e. not being caught in the act, or not having a really good justification story)

Trials with Jury members aren't all that common because most of the people in Faerun are illiterate commoners, not to be entrusted with knowing the finer points of the Law. Plus having such a Jury is a check on the powers of the magistrate, and thus by extension upon the powers that be. The Dukes of Baldur's Gate aren't tyrants, but that I wouldn't expect them to use Jury trials except for cases dealing with Nobles. Limiting your power is never a popular course of action. And it isn't necessirarily a good thing either, because it risks the phenomenon of Mob rule, where a mob of people become the justice system, rather than the just law of the land. (because contrary to commoners the nobles are supposed to be wise and intelligent people, which by extension should also hold true for their appointed magistrates)

Additionally Its a class justice system. In most-all mediëval systems, and in Faerun, Aristocrats, Knights and Nobles were entitled to a Jury of their peers. (while commoners aren't) The reason for that is that the powers that be are themselves aristocrats, and would want a trial by peers. And also in no small part because these peers are very powerful and important to the well being and functioning realm. (You want them to feel safe in your realm, so they don't cause trouble)

It is furthermore the case that Institutions like Unversities and Churches have their own codes of Law and are either completely or to a limited extent excluded from the law of secular authorities. (In this case the Dukes) Such an exclusion is however Always granted by the said secular authorities, so they can also decide to undo it or form an exception.



In actual European history during the mediëval period and later, Universities operated under so called student statutes. This meant students were exempted from local laws and had their own courts, run by their own peers. In practice this meant they could do whatever they want so long as they didn't cross the powers that be. Many students actually got away with murdering commoners as a sport. (because you weren't a man until you killed someone)
They were also allowed to carry weapons in the City, like nobility.

Such student statutes were actually a necessity, not a frivolous measure, because many students came from foreign countries. This was a problem because international law at the time, and still today actually, legally recognises the right of revenge. This meant that as a foreigner in country X you could be held accountable for any acts of your country and fellow nationals. In practice this meant that country X would hold you hostage until your familiy paid ransom for crimes committed by someone else from your country. Since Students needed to be from wealthy families to be able to afford to study, they were desirable hostage targets. And that in turn hurts the University, which hurts the City because it means less students will come.

This might sound like a tangent, but in Faerunian terms such a situation might well apply to instutions like the Churches, Shipping Conglomerates, Universities, Schools and Mage Guilds. A city like Baldur's Gate wouldn't like having its commerce, churches, schools or Mages relocate elsewhere. To prevent that it would be prepared to offer concessions. It is likewise with Paladin orders, whom are actually unpaid elite policemen from the perspective of the City.

Hope that helps

[Passiflora]

Pretty sure it's the temple of Tyr that handles it.

Anyway, used to be that in the past.

[Maecius]

Law in the Forgotten Realms (sourced from Power of Faerun):

Some cities and lands in Faerun have elaborate codes of justice, with written laws, specific penalties, and procedures refined through much case law or tradition. In wilderness areas or small settlements, the law of the sword (that is, might makes right) usually holds sawy.

Yet even where clearly codified laws exist, sentences are often at the discretion of the ruler. For example, a king can let a guilty party go free, perform a service rather than enduring the usual punishment, pay large fines in lieu of being flogged and imprisoned, and so on. In most places, royalty and nobility have rights or privileges that common folk lack.

Levying a sentence against the guilty varies from a simple administrative task to an adventure in navigating a treacherous maze of power players, depending on the personal prestige and influence of the guilty. A common thief faces his punishment alone. The scion of a powerful merchant house faces his sentence armed with all the economic and political power his family chooses to bring to bear. A vengeful family might bring your realm economic ruin if you imprison its heir, but a light sentence will turn subjects against you and show the realm that you can be cowed by threats. Meting out justice is a far thornier game than matching crimes with their listed punishments.

Generally, no place that thrives on trade (such as [Baldur's Gate,] Waterdeep, Scornubel, or Athkatla) dares allow open bribery or "flawed justice." Rigging of results must be done behind the scenes -- by not bringing someone to trial or arranging a prisoner escape -- rather than in public. Outside of frontier areas, places that survive on trade will have clearly codified laws, an independent judiciary (such as the Magisters of Waterdeep), and arrangements that let guilds partially punish their own members (lessening court sentences in return for guild sanctions). Belief must prevail that visiting merchants will be treated equally with residents and citizens -- or the merchants will stop coming.

For this reason, trial by combat is rarely allowed in trading centers, but might occur in rural mob justice or communities dominated by a faith allowing it (for example, a hamlet around a temple of Tempus). In Sembia as well as some Tethyrian baronies and Vilhon cities, combat between hired champions or personal dueling is public entertainment, resorted to in cases where no crime has been committed: because there are no laws protecting personal reputations, but a noble feels slighted by another noble, or a highborn not-yet-wed woman is accused of breing less than chaste and wants to refute the slur. After all, Faerun almost entirely lacks equivalents of real-world libel and slander laws.

In many places, magisters, guilds, and (in any case where a crime or complaint involves priests or temples as defendant, plaintiff, or witness) all priests have the right to call on magical aid to determine truth and falsehood. In cases involving offenses against clergy or temple property, priests usually are allowed to pass judgement and enact punishment only in temple-dominated communities; elsewhere, justice, including any magical aid that aggrieved priests request, must be provided by independent arcane spellcasters. Who pays for this service varies widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Faerun does not yet have a tradition of licensed lawyers, but it does have an increasing number of advocates (particularly in Amn and Sembia). These are paid orators who speak at trials, always in the presence of the accused, never appearing in her stead. They might or might not know details of local law in order to give useful advice to an accused (generally in Faerun called a prisoner, even if not yet deemed guilty). Some advocates are entertaining performers who mimic the voices of people, act out events, tell jokes, and engage in furious debate in court. Since this is often considered great entertainment, such antics are seldom cut short even by angry judges or rulers because the common folk enjoy it.

Hope this helps. Obviously all of the parts that apply to commercial centers and trading towns apply to Baldur's Gate. Beregost's law used to be determined by the Temple of the Morninglord, but is presently held to Amnian law (with Nashkel). Gullykin law is enforced by the mayor of Gullykin. Candlekeep law is enforced by the Keeper of the Tomes or the First Reader. Roaringshore law is basically enforced behavior, but "punishments" are meted out by the high captains in cases where someone is captured for a severe crime. Darkhold law follows traditional Zhentarim practices. Triel and Soubar follow the rural justice model.

The Friendly Arm Inn tends to ship its criminals to Baldur's Gate, if troublemakers are caught there.

[Xanfyrst]

Don't forget Justicars of Tyr. In regions where the worship/reverence of Tyr is great, they can perform the duties of a judge, magistrate and persecutor. They're well-versed with the law and their devotion to Tyr makes them ideal for these kinds of trials.

But usually it's the landlord that is the real judge, though.

[Nyeleni]

Where is the next temple dedicated to Selûne? I guess, Waterdeep should have one... what about Athkatla? I suppose BG doesnt have one... Maybe Neverwinter?

[Catam]

Where is the next temple dedicated to Selûne? I guess, Waterdeep should have one... what about Athkatla? I suppose BG doesnt have one... Maybe Neverwinter?

"Anywhere the full moon shines is a place for Selûne."

I'm checking resources but haven't found anything specific yet....

[Darksider_war]

Where is the next temple dedicated to Selûne? I guess, Waterdeep should have one... what about Athkatla? I suppose BG doesnt have one... Maybe Neverwinter?

afak, Waterdeep is the only city of the sword coast to have a true and proper temple dedicated to Selune. It also doubles as an orphanage of sorts.

BG has no temples of Selune whatsoever, same goes for Neverwinter. Athkatla should have at least a shrine IIRC.

[Catam]

Where is the next temple dedicated to Selûne? I guess, Waterdeep should have one... what about Athkatla? I suppose BG doesnt have one... Maybe Neverwinter?

afak, Waterdeep is the only city of the sword coast to have a true and proper temple dedicated to Selune. It also doubles as an orphanage of sorts.
BG has no temples of Selune whatsoever, same goes for Neverwinter. Athkatla should have at least a shrine IIRC.

Good to know, DW! What sources did you find that in? FRCS has so many page numbers listed for Selûne it takes forever to look at them all!

[Darksider_war]

Where is the next temple dedicated to Selûne? I guess, Waterdeep should have one... what about Athkatla? I suppose BG doesnt have one... Maybe Neverwinter?

afak, Waterdeep is the only city of the sword coast to have a true and proper temple dedicated to Selune. It also doubles as an orphanage of sorts.
BG has no temples of Selune whatsoever, same goes for Neverwinter. Athkatla should have at least a shrine IIRC.

Good to know, DW! What sources did you find that in? FRCS has so many page numbers listed for Selûne it takes forever to look at them all!

Most of my lore about Selune and her places of worship comes from these handbooks:

For Selunite faith in Waterdeep:
- "City of Splendors: Waterdeep" handbook

For Selunite faith in Athkatla/Amn:
- "Lands of Intrigue" handbook.

Worth of mention is the fact that it has never been updated to 3rd edition, from what I know, thus its consistency in canon lore may be questionable.

[Catam]

Most of my lore about Selune and her places of worship comes from these handbooks:

For Selunite faith in Waterdeep:
- "City of Splendors: Waterdeep" handbook

For Selunite faith in Athkatla/Amn:
- "Lands of Intrigue" handbook.

Worth of mention is the fact that it has never been updated to 3rd edition, from what I know, thus its consistency in canon lore may be questionable.

Thanks! I have City of Splendors but I will hit paizo and see if I can find Lands of Intrigue.

[Simian]

Worth of mention is the fact that it has never been updated to 3rd edition, from what I know, thus its consistency in canon lore may be questionable.

Actually, while our server leans towards 3rd edition rules for the mechanical side of things, the 2nd edition source books are actually preferred for in game lore. The reason for this preference lies that those books are much closer to our current time line, and often contain richer lore for the setting.

[Rainbow Prism]

The 2nd edition books always are more informative. Mostly, because 3rd edition's guides' job is to explain what is new, not what is around.

Therefore, all good info is 2nd edition based unless you take timeline in account.

[Hoihe]

How exactly is the one magical item/kind rule work?

Can someone say wear.. 2 different magical vambraces/bracers and a magical glove, and only get the bonus from the strongest item, or do the magical items act like magnets with the same polarity, and repell the other magical item of the same kind?


I've been thinking about approaching item changing by saying they were already equipped, but were dormant/surpassed by the stronger one.

Gloves should always surpass a single vambrace, for 2 vs 1. Stronger magical effect would surpass the lower one.

So in Hoihe's case: TWF gloves > Intelligence bracers > Archer bracers
Remove gloves, int kicks in, remove int bracers, archery kicks in.

Or they don't work this way?

I personally found conflicting ideas on this matter. If anyone could tell me how they really work I'd be glad.

[Valefort]

Why don't you just RP changing one for another ? Sounds much simpler and in line with what your inventory states.