Death exp condensed

[TheVoid]

What is more useful than the "RP sake" of Character development?

If that is not the first priority when you log in than you might as well go somewhere else imho.

[stevebarracuda]

What is more useful than the "RP sake" of Character development?

If that is not the first priority when you log in than you might as well go somewhere else imho.

If you look at any forum discussion about RP, XP, the Death Penalty, grinding, powerbuilds/RP builds or CR ratings, most posts end on an issue about whether or not RPing for itself is or is not the reason for being on this server. The post usually ends bad, ends locked or ends without any valuable resolve on the discussion. Every time someone mentions "you should only be here for RP or go elsewhere," I sigh with a mix of frustration and irritation. But that's me...

If it is the case—as you so boldly challenge me with your response Void—that if a player is not here to RP for the sake of RP only, then why even give out XP at all? Why not just make this a max lvl 10 server, stop developing areas, and just let all players tell yarns around a campfire about great deeds done and imagined...essentially make this a social story telling site...but with avatars.

Sorry to be so crass, but I think you asked for it considering how you confront my last post but don't actually address the discussion going on here.

What do you think of a stat reduction replacing the current Death Penalty? Do you have any suggestions yourself about the situation, for improvement? Do you think we players are just bullshit whiners and need some sort of spanking?

All I can say is this: 90% of the time I log in to BGTSCC, I RP with every toon I run into, attempt to forward my characters storyline/development, engage with my friends (players) that I enjoy speaking with during my adventuring, both IC and OOC. Go ahead, ask around.

However, I also log in to so that I can enjoy the activity of leveling my toons, reaching all those awesome feats that this game was designed around (D&D), and playing f'ing Dungeons and Dragons, sir. I like to wield swords, cast spells, save the princess and cause mayhem now and then. I can do all that and RP, thank you very much.

IMHO: Dungeons & Dragons is about taking on the role of a fantasy "super-hero" of sorts, being the protagonist alongside a group of similar protagonists, sword/wand in one hand and torch/shield in another, letting a Dungeon Master guide/support you as you utilize your imagination and creativity to develop stories that are just not possible in real life.

That's why I log on here, almost every day, and if you want me to go, then just say so. If you think I'm not a positive force either in-game or on these boards, then say so.

Otherwise, I'd like to hear you opinion, as Head DM, about the ideas expressed here, so that we players who are interested in helping to craft this PW, can know if we're just wasting our time. Cause, if you deem it so, I'll respect that decision, as I've respected every decision every DM has made since I arrived here.

And then I'll go log on, RP my ass off and kill a thousand monsters until I level...

[Simian]

Steve finished his post before I did with mine.

What is more useful than the "RP sake" of Character development?

If that is not the first priority when you log in than you might as well go somewhere else imho.

Void, Dungeons and Dragons is first and foremost a numerical game of dice. To play it, you only need dice and the ability to handle basic arithmetic operations. Role-playing comes to the picture after you've learned how to hit the armor class zero.

Now, NWN2 and D&D computer games in general have flipped that upside down. All the basic arthmetic operations are handled for you below the surface, leaving you to focus on other things. For example, pretending that you are a half-elf raised by a sour elven guardian who partly resents you for the loss of the love of his life. Or that you have spend all your life with the NPCs that were presented to you less than five minutes ago, and that the risk imposed upon their lives is not meaningless.

So, we start with role-playing. And soon realise that it is still a game, and to be good in this game we have to handle some basic arithmetic operations to make sure the game is running on the correct set of values to reach the desired conclusion. It does not matter how much you have emoted training with the sword, repeating the same rudimentary sword practises ad infinitum. For the game, the only thing that matters is whether you have the right combination of feats, ability scores and class levels - or not. And to have those things you need to level up, but you are still not quite there yet and you have to level up again, and again. We are earning experience points so that we can level up, so that we can earn more experience points... We are chasing rainbows.

Hence, while it would be nice to have people log in here just for the sake of role-playing... reaching the level 30 remains one of the 'priorities' for all players here. Some may be less enthusiastic about it than some others, but that is pretty much it. A lot of players would cry foul if the distant goal were taken away, or handed too easy.

[Charraj]

As I mentioned earlier, I'm guilty of the XP-centered mentality myself sometimes. But this is an RP server, and that consideration should be our driving policy, IMO.

So I agree with Steve, bumping up the RP XP in taverns and such would be a good idea. Mostly because I think it would promote RP.

Still, it's a topic that threatens to derail this thread. So I'm going to shift gears back to the death system.

---

On topic:

Again, I think the focus should be on increasing RP and decreasing grinding.

With that in mind, the only plausible reason I see for removing the XP penalty at all is because XP loss might only encourage further grinding (this is debatable; I've sometimes found that losing so much XP actually destroyed my appetite for grinding, and I started RPing instead).

If we remove the XP penalty, it should be replaced with an RP-centered penalty that is no less "harsh." Otherwise, dying is a joke and players just keep on grinding anyways. Ability score penalties are, IMO, perfect. Whether you RP actual dying or simply being knocked out, being beaten in combat should make you weak and ineffective for a while. Who the heck is going to go fight when they've just barely survived being hacked to bits? No one. And having a -6 penalty to your physical scores would portray that accurately. It would force people to slow down and RP their injuries. We wouldn't see people hop up and zip away right after being raised.

So I'd like to see -6 penalties to STR, DEX, and CON whenever we die, and have it last for at least thirty RL minutes.
Edit: Also, 50% speed decrease.

But that's just me.

---

To address Steve and Simian's recent posts, I sometimes DO wish we could just make everyone a flat level 10 or 15, and forget about the whole XP thing, lol. But that's just not going to happen, for better or worse. At this point, this server is what it is. But at the very least, we can keep promoting RP.

[TheVoid]

Look,

If you come here your primary focus should be RP and developing a character, not a munchkin.

I didn't say that the behaviors to level are not valid but what I am saying is that if you come here with an agenda to loot and level first and RP second that isn't how we intend on building or furthering the module. We aren't going to make things easier for that behavior, we are actually going imo in the opposite direction.

Many on the staff side as myself feel that level 30 is too easily acheived here and becoming epic means little to nothing as far as an achievement. We don't want to cut people off cold turkey from that but we are saying that if your sole intent is too level and loot then you are probably in the wrong place. RP and character development cannot be a second priority here, it should be the first priority and if it isn't, it quickly becomes apparent that this will not be the place for those that do not want to follow that mandate.

The importance of playing your role and developing your character should be the reason why you are choosing the classes, races, stats, and abilities for that character, not the other way around. If you want to play a BUILD go to an arena or an action oriented PW, if you want to play a CHARACTER you are welcome here. It is as simple as that.

If character development is your priority topics such as these are quite moot.

As for what I think about the death affects. I was the first one to propose ability and stat penalities long before this thread was made. It was shot down as being too harsh ... huh, go figure

Death penalties are time out for players who don't have the ability to control themselves or act carelessly (don't give me that Lag death BS or some Evil DM trying to kill you excuse, that rarely happens). It is a consequence for poorly made plans and low player IQ. Sorry to be blunt but that is seriously the problem here. I see some players are completely inept when dungeon crawling and they are normally the ones crying for things to be easier and of less cost to themselves. I mean do we really need to always cater to the lowest common denominator here? I think not.

The other related reason is that the death penalties are there to slow your progression. We DO NOT WANT YOUR CHARACTER TO LEVEL TO EPIC AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. I've been on servers where you could get to epic levels in a week even if you were a (do-me) retard. It's bad enough people earn epic status on sheer entitlement than actually earning it by doing things of merit....

No matter what we decide, quite a number of players refuse to consider any penalties as "GOOD" for them. It's the mentality that they are entitled to level, entitled to have what others have with no effort. That isn't what a game is about, sure most modern MMOs encourage that BS type of mentality but this is a lot more old fashioned. We want players to adapt and learn from their mistakes and be encouraged to take a break if they making mistakes way to often to be lucrative for themselves.

Removing negative reinforcers like XP death penalty and replacing them with another negative reinforcer is not going to make people any more happy about dying or being completely incapicitated for hours. The idea of off setting the penalities by increasing the XP multipliers of things that you SHOULD BE DOING when you are here is also sending the wrong message to the playerbase. You don't do everything for a reward, you are not an animal that needs to be trained, you should be conscious of what you do, the expectations that your peers and staff have of you, and the reasons why you are playing in this module. It is not ALL MECHANICALLY INCENTIVE DRIVEN, that is an idea that I think needs to be squashed here.

We allow people to have choices with building their characters and a ton of liberty on how they would like to play the character concept. But more and more these days, I see cross class combos for power, min/max stats, character concepts that are not at all representative to what is possible in lore or the setting.... so something tells me that there is a lack of self-restraint on behalf of many that play here.

We don't need to dilute things further to make it even harder to suspend disbelief.

The XP penalty to me is not harsh enough. My proposal was to impose both XP penalty and stat debuffs if you are indeed felled in combat and somehow miraculously risen or brought back to consciousness by whatever means. It teaches you a lesson to not make a stupid mistake the next time you try to solo a boss. Sadly, no one is up for a challenge anymore these days. Not many can stomach a loss and keep it as a personal issue they need to improve on instead they prefer to blame their inadequacies on the institution.

A game is played to win or lose. I have lost many characters in PnP campaigns that I have played in. I don't get rez'd because I cry about it or make the DM retcon my idiotic actions or ask the rules be changed to avoid any ill affects to my character. If I get my character killed, I got to reroll or get the hell out of the game if I want to whine about it. Not having a permadeath system is already a far fetched concept since there is no finality to actions that will get you killed permenantly.

Smelling salts? Ressurection Rods? Raise dead scrolls? Please.... that is another way of saying there is no such thing as death, that death is of no consequence and feel free to break immersion at any time. No matter what we call it, it's delaying the inevitable outcome that your character should face but NEVER WILL. Nothing can fix that glaring mistake.

So my point is that no matter what we decide is a best "substitute" for a death system, without finality death means nothing and it's pretty trivial just like this discussion.

[stevebarracuda]

If you want to play a BUILD go to an arena or an action oriented PW, if you want to play a CHARACTER you are welcome here.

Thank you for explaining your stance on the subject(s).

I still, for one, think a stat reduction-penalty vs. an XP reduction on death is more RP-able and leads to more interesting interactions between players, but that's my opinion...maybe some others share it.

And yes, I *could* RP my own stat reductions after my toon dies...but like I've said, my toons don't die anymore...well, very very rarely.

Anyone up for a First Time You Die That's It for This Toon Permadeath Club?

[Blackbird]

Of course death means nothing. It's first and foremost a game. I can't think of one game out there where the death of your character meant something (no one I know grieves when their character dies, holds a funeral or takes days off work because they're depressed). You might get pissed and throw your keyboard, but five minutes later you're probably playing the game again.

I think we are getting too philosophical now regardless and some of the questions raised are probably questions for their own thread (i.e. time to reach 30, the ubiquitous builds section here filled with optimized power builds). Some anchors:

1. We want people to RP. I think we can all agree on this pretty easily.

&

2. We want to encourage that RP by allowing certain in-game mechanics to nudge/assist players in that direction. In this case: What happens when you die.


I like the stat debuff idea and it's clear many other people here do too.

[Charraj]

(no one I know grieves when their character dies, holds a funeral or takes days off work because they're depressed)

My good sir, you haven't met the players I have.

[Molag__Bal]

I've been in some events, often those ran by Void himself, where my characters have died 2-3 times. Usually other members died more than that. Cumulative stat debuffs during events could get pretty brutal.

[TheVoid]

Yeah if you are with mo_lag you will surely die.

My sole mission is too test his builds so I know how to better kill the rest of you low IQ players

[Charraj]

Anyone up for a First Time You Die That's It for This Toon Permadeath Club?

I'm so skerred.
. . . Start it up, let's do this.

[Charraj]

I've been in some events, often those ran by Void himself, where my characters have died 2-3 times. Usually other members died more than that. Cumulative stat debuffs during events could get pretty brutal.

It doesn't need to be cumulative. A flat -6 penalty, along with a 50% speed decrease, that gets reapplied upon each death would be good enough.

[Simian]

Some 'musings on Void's latest...

Spirit Shaman / Hospitaler is an outrageous class combination. However, it provides the game-mechanical backround for what my character ought to be able to do. ( Beats whining and waiting for a base class that will never be implemented on the server the way it is in PnP. )

Hmn... Bosses... I had about 10-20 minute fight with the Lizard Chieftain boss on found under the warerfall. It was also the first and last time I went there. I got a mundane leather armor as a reward for putting my entire spell selection in use, and almost dying in the process. T'was fun I guess. But anyhow, let's just say that I am a moron and inept at grinding. Hey, I got no reason to complain considering how I can just continue grinding the weekly quests and leave out the hostile areas to the brilliant expert munckins that they've been designed for. I have no issue with that, I just fail to see how it promotes RP choices over the Min-max choices.

And heck, it's not like I lost the wireless connection while writing this post. Oh not at all.

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1) Toss away the experience penalty on death.
2) Replace it with a harsh, progressive, and temporal ability score penalty. Preferably one that hits all ability scores or the player's highest.

Bringing the following results:
1) Dump morons will still roll their eyes and alt+F4 when they die.
2) You can no longer escape from the death penalty by being level 30 or just gone up a level.


Edit:
Why progressive?
Because a new player that dies, gets hit by -6 on ability scores might not log back in again. Especially when we consider how the low level areas are usually the emptiest ones.

[Charraj]

Edit:
Why progressive?
Because a new player that dies, gets hit by -6 on ability scores might not log back in again. Especially when we consider how the low level areas are usually the emptiest ones.

Yeah, but I'm afraid it'll be more difficult to script. Might be more buggy.
Simple is better, IMO.

[TheVoid]

I want both XP penalty and stat debuffs.

I like to have my cake and eat it too...

sorry, XP penalties are the only thing keeping the server from accelerating the progression to epic levels in record time. Even with stat debuffs, that will not be enough to stem the tide of progression. We are overbooked with epic characters and without permadeath there is no way to keep this population controlled. With so many epics around it fuels the drive to become epic as fastest possible leaving RP second and progression by mechanics first.

It is already like that now, I wouldn't condone or support changes that would further deteriorate the situation.