Gladiators i salute you. (Continuing event and Open RP)

[Servin]

a dispell would have been sufficient to remove wards

Yeah up till this moment I ask myself why wasn't there one in any of the fights. It's an AOE spell afterall. I partly think it was down to Abs doing the event alone...

RP-wise, if you were the arena master and ran the gladiatorial fights business, your main concern would be to keep the audience happy as they would be the ones paying you money. If there is no bloodshed the audience is leaving and you go bankrupt. Complimentary means need to be provided to keep them happy instead. Either 50 guards shoot the coward once he returns to be touchable (by dispell or otherwise) or they get munched by another beast there is no defense against.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0778.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html

Arena is not a place for cowards. No fighting is just a sign of that. Sorry.

[Dorn Morselame]

We can do a big fight with all the pc trying to kill each other, the survivor is the winner.

joke aside i think it's better to have a team (4 player for example) who fight against the ennemies the dm bring, than just one player.

[Kenshin]

A team combat option was planned from the beginning.

However, if there is an expectations that spellcasters will not use their wards or spells and that rogues will not be able to strike from stealth then the arena will be reduced to a place where resilience and brute force rule the day.

Stripped of tactical variety and the challenges thereof what is left but a bashing contest of who can cause the most damage, have the most hit points, or possess the highest damage reduction?

[Dorn Morselame]

A team combat option was planned from the beginning.

i don't see it as a option but as an obligation, no one player but a team.

[Passiflora]

I think that for a good show, just... forget the builds. Forget the classes.

I've seen the arena, and honestly, what it lacks is the capacity for the contestant in the middle to emote things.

The only arena fight I did on BG was on the surface, in the smaller arena. There, I could emote things, yell at the audience while flexing and raising the arms. Emoting things while slashing ennemies. THAT, is a show. A gladiator must please the crowd as much as win the fights.

[Servin]

I think that for a good show, just... forget the builds. Forget the classes.

I've seen the arena, and honestly, what it lacks is the capacity for the contestant in the middle to emote things.

The only arena fight I did on BG was on the surface, in the smaller arena. There, I could emote things, yell at the audience while flexing and raising the arms. Emoting things while slashing ennemies. THAT, is a show. A gladiator must please the crowd as much as win the fights.

Wise words. I was beginning to worry I'm the only one seeing the arena that way.

[Dorn Morselame]

The only arena fight I did on BG was on the surface, in the smaller arena. There, I could emote things, yell at the audience while flexing and raising the arms. Emoting things while slashing ennemies.

i think the same thing and more:

like emoting all the fight not playing at all, with that a player can go under a giant, jump on a goblin, throws some sand on the face etc... (with some d20, like a dnd paper)

[Ardul]

However, if there is an expectations that spellcasters will not use their wards or spells and that rogues will not be able to strike from stealth then the arena will be reduced to a place where resilience and brute force rule the day.

Stripped of tactical variety and the challenges thereof what is left but a bashing contest of who can cause the most damage, have the most hit points, or possess the highest damage reduction?

I must disagree. By having a clear framework of fighting rules, they will be much more balanced, only tiny things will make the difference and so tactic will play a huge role. Consider also the possibility that there can be more than just one combatant / opponent, various weapons involved and different monsters. There will still be enough room for finding optimal builds and feats to make the difference.

I ask again: why do we want to see spellcasters in the arena anyways? There is no need for it. To see interesting fights you have to give combatants the same abilites, otherwise fights will be imbalanced in 90% of all cases and monsters tend to have unrealistic abilites to compensate the lag of AI vs. a human player. I dont say it is not possible to make it balanced, but it will be too much work balancing things and only little to gain, and as an outcome you can not even guarantee that it will end more 'tactical' than a simple bashing against each other. Apart from that I would find it strange RP-wise that wizards or priestesses of lolth would be regularly part of an arena match.

[Servin]

Stripped of tactical variety and the challenges thereof what is left but a bashing contest of who can cause the most damage, have the most hit points, or possess the highest damage reduction?

So how is that any different to what we've seen the last time in the arena?

[Kenshin]

I must disagree. By having a clear framework of fighting rules, they will be much more balanced, only tiny things will make the difference and so tactic will play a huge role. Consider also the possibility that there can be more than just one combatant / opponent, various weapons involved and different monsters. There will still be enough room for finding optimal builds and feats to make the difference.

I ask again: why do we want to see spellcasters in the arena anyways? There is no need for it. To see interesting fights you have to give combatants the same abilites, otherwise fights will be imbalanced in 90% of all cases and monsters tend to have unrealistic abilites to compensate the lag of AI vs. a human player. I dont say it is not possible to make it balanced, but it will be too much work balancing things and only little to gain, and as an outcome you can not even guarantee that it will end more 'tactical' than a simple bashing against each other. Apart from that I would find it strange RP-wise that wizards or priestesses of lolth would be regularly part of an arena match.

What clear framework are you speaking of? The two contests that have so far been staged involved gladiators against a variety of monsters (opponents). If you exclude spellcasters and stealth-based builds what is left other than a pure bashing contest? And, in fact, DM Absolution has included a variety of physical combat challenges. The game has mechanical limitations, however, and in both cases the player characters relied on what their builds do best. Valve activated a weapon enhancement and then closed to melee (in one instance he appeared to rely on whirlwind attack) and Alienor buffed up to reliably land irresistable divine damage before entering melee.

As far as tactical challenge, I was referring to group combat, a topic that Dorn raised. As I see it, group combat would be interesting exactly because there would be a variety of skills, abilities, spells, and potential synergies brought to bear in a situation where quick thinking and a tactical approach are likely to be crucial.

In the BioWare classic, Shadows of Amn, the pit fights in Ust Natha featured all sorts of combatants with various motivations (including mages, a cleric, several warriors, and a bevy of monsters). I much rather see an attempt to recreate the feel of those challenges - or of party-based combat in general - than to aim for some form of hyper-realistic take on the Roman arena. All the more so because quite clearly the intent here is not to distract the teeming masses with bread and circus from rioting in the streets.

I agree that watching someone buff for three minutes is anti-climactic but that is how certain builds work. To reduce such 'boredom' it would have been best to let Alienor buff once and then proceed through the various matches without rest. On the other hand, that would have allowed less time for role-play between the audience and DM controlled NPCs, and between the audience and the gladiator.

Storm and Dorn both made excellent points regarding placing the focus on role-play. Dorn's suggestion of gladiatorial combat through 'emoting' may have been a bit extreme but it would certainly allow for more audience participation.

[Servin]

How to make an invincible gladiator in a month and a half:

Step 1: Make a Wizard/Cleric Character, preferably both with the more buff proficient class dominating. Make sure your casting ability is top and preferably keep a high DC for spells. If you play divine/arcane class mix, concentrate on the one you think will give better buffs, so they are harder to dispell. You do not need to worry about combat abilities. They are useless at that point anyway...
Step 2: Call up some mates to level you up from level 1 to 15 in a week in the duergar mines, whilst remaining invisible but in party
Step 3: Whilst levelling take a Still Casting feat, get 3 Levels in Fighter for heavy armour feats before level 20 and get levels as Eldritch Knight.
Step 4: Try and get to level 25 in the next two weeks like above, perhaps go on an event for magic trinkets.

You are ready... though a few more levels wouldn't hurt, perhaps some epic pwn spell...

Wiz3/F3/EK9/Cleric or Druid 15

How to fight in the arena:
Step 1: Cast all the possible buffs perhaps with extended spell feat, before the fight. Whatever you got left keep for dispelling, eventually pwn spells if there are no good spells on that level. The buffs will not get removed at the end of the combat so who cares anyway, lol. No need to plan wisely which spells to have during combat either. The buffs will last longer than the event anyway! Keep a few Tenser's Transformations, stoneskins etc. spells for recasting. Congratulations! You are now more powerful than any 30 level fighter and have higher saving throws than any monk and can still cast spells.
Step 2: Pwn your enemies and become champion and have Absolution twist his finger on clicking heal on his monsters.
Step 3: Make "Bashing is my tactics" your family motto.

Congratulations - You are the new arena champion!

Crowd! Y U NO CHEERING?!

[dean1986]

How to make an invincible gladiator in a month and a half:

Step 1: Make a Wizard/Cleric Character, preferably both with the more buff proficient class dominating. Make sure your casting ability is top and preferably keep a high DC for spells. If you play divine/arcane class mix, concentrate on the one you think will give better buffs, so they are harder to dispell. You do not need to worry about combat abilities. They are useless at that point anyway...
Step 2: Call up some mates to level you up from level 1 to 15 in a week in the duergar mines, whilst remaining invisible but in party
Step 3: Whilst levelling take a Still Casting feat, get 3 Levels in Fighter for heavy armour feats before level 20 and get levels as Eldritch Knight.
Step 4: Try and get to level 25 in the next two weeks like above, perhaps go on an event for magic trinkets.

You are ready... though a few more levels wouldn't hurt, perhaps some epic pwn spell...

Wiz3/F3/EK9/Cleric or Druid 15

How to fight in the arena:
Step 1: Cast all the possible buffs perhaps with extended spell feat, before the fight. Whatever you got left keep for dispelling, eventually pwn spells if there are no good spells on that level. The buffs will not get removed at the end of the combat so who cares anyway, lol. No need to plan wisely which spells to have during combat either. The buffs will last longer than the event anyway! Keep a few Tenser's Transformations, stoneskins etc. spells for recasting. Congratulations! You are now more powerful than any 30 level fighter and have higher saving throws than any monk and can still cast spells.
Step 2: Pwn your enemies and become champion and have Absolution twist his finger on clicking heal on his monsters.
Step 3: Make "Bashing is my tactics" your family motto.

Congratulations - You are the new arena champion!

Crowd! Y U NO CHEERING?!

Although i detect sarcasm quite clearly. I can see some truth in what you say. Personally I think buffs should be allowed but you must buff visibly and just don't go over the top with divine power and epic might. Fights should start straight away and buffless. If a caster just cast premonition and haste. If a a healer just caste divine power and regen simple really. These events are hard because people power build. Favored souls were never meant to be the paladins and evil paladins. It's players that have abused how the system works i guess. Simple rules will go far. If god forbid a druid be captured just caste premonition and stone skin the companion throw some drowns.

[Dorn Morselame]

As I see it, group combat would be interesting exactly because there would be a variety of skills, abilities, spells, and potential synergies brought to bear in a situation where quick thinking and a tactical approach are likely to be crucial.

yes and more entertaining to watch in my view.

We can also do hazardous team, draw lot by the master of the pit, sometimes foes will work together against the monster in the arena.

[Ardul]

//Ok, finally I am in the mood going through the wall of text I got in response...

What clear framework are you speaking of? The two contests that have so far been staged involved gladiators against a variety of monsters (opponents). If you exclude spellcasters and stealth-based builds what is left other than a pure bashing contest?

The framework which I am speaking of are rules of arena combat. I have not said that I want stealth to be excluded, but that it is up to the DM to decide what he wants. It will be alot meele bashing, yes, but - i repeat myself here - there are various weapons (including ranged ones) and abilities/feats to use, and not to say the vast selection of monsters, which will become alot different to fight with no magic involved, which is imo worth a try.

I said that if you use magic than you can not guarantee it will end in the same bashing which you critizise (most builds ARE some sort of bashing btw), with the difference that in this case the fight will be imbalanced (=boring) or hard to balance for the dm

And, in fact, DM Absolution has included a variety of physical combat challenges. The game has mechanical limitations, however, and in both cases the player characters relied on what their builds do best. Valve activated a weapon enhancement and then closed to melee (in one instance he appeared to rely on whirlwind attack) and Alienor buffed up to reliably land irresistable divine damage before entering melee.

That may have happend, but for me - and propably not only me - such details like a certain spell are hard to follow and overall I just saw someone invincible with 20+ buffs and the opponent were looking forward to his doom. I dont think I missed an important spell turning the tide in the last fights.

As far as tactical challenge, I was referring to group combat, a topic that Dorn raised. As I see it, group combat would be interesting exactly because there would be a variety of skills, abilities, spells, and potential synergies brought to bear in a situation where quick thinking and a tactical approach are likely to be crucial.

I have not excluded group combat as well but the idea isnt really original enough to accredit it to someone imo.

In the BioWare classic, Shadows of Amn, the pit fights in Ust Natha featured all sorts of combatants with various motivations (including mages, a cleric, several warriors, and a bevy of monsters). I much rather see an attempt to recreate the feel of those challenges - or of party-based combat in general - than to aim for some form of hyper-realistic take on the Roman arena. All the more so because quite clearly the intent here is not to distract the teeming masses with bread and circus from rioting in the streets.

Depends on how you did these fights. I remember they were funny but you could also do them with ease, depending on what char/build you had. Perhaps you are right and the exclusion of magic turns out to be boring, but i would give it a try.

I agree that watching someone buff for three minutes is anti-climactic but that is how certain builds work. To reduce such 'boredom' it would have been best to let Alienor buff once and then proceed through the various matches without rest. On the other hand, that would have allowed less time for role-play between the audience and DM controlled NPCs, and between the audience and the gladiator.

I dont like this idea too. Then all buffs - if they would be allowed - are gone when they are needed. If you want magic, then at least dont let them buff beforehand and dont allow spells giving sanctuary or other things to avoid the attention of monsters.

[Servin]

How to make an invincible gladiator in a month and a half:

Step 1: Make a Wizard/Cleric Character, preferably both with the more buff proficient class dominating. Make sure your casting ability is top and preferably keep a high DC for spells. If you play divine/arcane class mix, concentrate on the one you think will give better buffs, so they are harder to dispell. You do not need to worry about combat abilities. They are useless at that point anyway...
Step 2: Call up some mates to level you up from level 1 to 15 in a week in the duergar mines, whilst remaining invisible but in party
Step 3: Whilst levelling take a Still Casting feat, get 3 Levels in Fighter for heavy armour feats before level 20 and get levels as Eldritch Knight.
Step 4: Try and get to level 25 in the next two weeks like above, perhaps go on an event for magic trinkets.

You are ready... though a few more levels wouldn't hurt, perhaps some epic pwn spell...

Wiz3/F3/EK9/Cleric or Druid 15

How to fight in the arena:
Step 1: Cast all the possible buffs perhaps with extended spell feat, before the fight. Whatever you got left keep for dispelling, eventually pwn spells if there are no good spells on that level. The buffs will not get removed at the end of the combat so who cares anyway, lol. No need to plan wisely which spells to have during combat either. The buffs will last longer than the event anyway! Keep a few Tenser's Transformations, stoneskins etc. spells for recasting. Congratulations! You are now more powerful than any 30 level fighter and have higher saving throws than any monk and can still cast spells.
Step 2: Pwn your enemies and become champion and have Absolution twist his finger on clicking heal on his monsters.
Step 3: Make "Bashing is my tactics" your family motto.

Congratulations - You are the new arena champion!

Crowd! Y U NO CHEERING?!

Although i detect sarcasm quite clearly. I can see some truth in what you say. Personally I think buffs should be allowed but you must buff visibly and just don't go over the top with divine power and epic might. Fights should start straight away and buffless. If a caster just cast premonition and haste. If a a healer just caste divine power and regen simple really. These events are hard because people power build. Favored souls were never meant to be the paladins and evil paladins. It's players that have abused how the system works i guess. Simple rules will go far. If god forbid a druid be captured just caste premonition and stone skin the companion throw some drowns.

But you get what I'm saying... More than 5 rounds of buffs in a single skirmish makes the whole fight go boring and makes me think it's a waste of money. 30+ seconds of buffs = instant death by arena guards. Strict as it is, as a spectator I do not care what you have to do to win. Also no resting after the fight, you do get healed, but all your buffs are dispelled. You want tactics - get your spells right. Simple as. No sneaking either. Daze/paralyse your opponent if you want to backstab them.

What I'm suggesting are simple rules, acknowledging that the fights are for the audience and not audience for the fights. We make the majority and we pay the money. RP-wise either that or get stuffed.