Pale master Summon greater undead question

[Blackman D]

hey that sounds like a familiar suggestion

Subject: Create undead/Animate undead etc.

a duration of 2 rounds per CL wouldnt be too bad i guess, pre extends the duration and then you can extend it again if you want to, but it should stay in rounds/CL

[Luna]

hey that sounds like a familiar suggestion

Subject: Create undead/Animate undead etc.

a duration of 2 rounds per CL wouldnt be too bad i guess, pre extends the duration and then you can extend it again if you want to, but it should stay in rounds/CL

I should have listened.

[Laenor]

This fixes nothing.
CGU to 2 rounds per level only forces wizards to memorize one additional level 6 spell, three additional level 3 spells and one additional level 2 spell to achieve the same result (A vampire that lasts until your next rest)

Basically, it sucks, without changing anything.

When you're talking about "epic salamanders", these things are among the weakest epic creatures.

You're also using a buffed summon : It's not just a level 8 spell
It's a level 8 spell + a level 6 spell + 3 level 3 spells + 1 level 2 spell (CGU, Gr. Hero, Spider Skin / IMA / GMW / Bull's and probably haste, too)

That change will do nothing about the power of vampires, all it does is makes it a pain to use them by having to dedicate more of your spell slots to buff them rather than to use them on other spells.

CGU is already a pain because you're not allowed to use it whenever there's people around, and you're better of unsummoning the vampire if you ever meet anyone unless you seek trouble.

I really can't understand why things such these can be altered while stupidly overpowered dragonform pure druids and EDM Favored souls have been kept intact for years.

Don't even get me started on Divine Strength ...

[breteas]

Fine.

[ohboy007]

This fixes nothing.
CGU to 2 rounds per level only forces wizards to memorize one additional level 6 spell, three additional level 3 spells and one additional level 2 spell to achieve the same result (A vampire that lasts until your next rest)

Basically, it sucks, without changing anything.

When you're talking about "epic salamanders", these things are among the weakest epic creatures.

You're also using a buffed summon : It's not just a level 8 spell
It's a level 8 spell + a level 6 spell + 3 level 3 spells + 1 level 2 spell (CGU, Gr. Hero, Spider Skin / IMA / GMW / Bull's and probably haste, too)

That change will do nothing about the power of vampires, all it does is makes it a pain to use them by having to dedicate more of your spell slots to buff them rather than to use them on other spells.

CGU is already a pain because you're not allowed to use it whenever there's people around, and you're better of unsummoning the vampire if you ever meet anyone unless you seek trouble.

I really can't understand why things such these can be altered while stupidly overpowered dragonform pure druids and EDM Favored souls have been kept intact for years.

Don't even get me started on Divine Strength ...

+1 buddy. I still destroy things with them but have to cast more spells to do it so whats the point? If all summons have extened times than why pick on the evil summons only really (CGU, Epic Gate, and Gate (well also for good). Not to mention you don't always get the warrior. For my Gish this is ok sinse he front lines anyways, but for a sorcerer, you want it to be the warrior most the time. And as you mentioned, you cant just bust out this spell without having to PvP so it can be a pain.

[breteas]

It's pretty simple.

If PM summon is able to whoop CR 25+ creatures, nothing else in UD is able to even hurt it, it's OP. If Cgu is more powerful than PM summon, obviously there is a balance issue then. It will be fixed.

I still destroy things with them but have to cast more spells to do it so whats the point?

Very funny. I actually cast nothing to help it in combat bu lvl 1 spells and cantrips. I didn't have gold, usables, or any of that. So if I can do that, a full fledged lvl 30 drow with items, gold and spells gained can surely do it.

If you cannot, there must be something wrong.

But don't dispair. I will post the long lasted video of my PM doing the Idiot dance in ntherese ruins, while I sip coffee, watching my spawn slowly kill creatures that would rip some lvl 30 builds with epic gear to shreds.

[Laenor]

Sure, go for it.

The fully buffed CGU creature (That is buffed with : Haste, Greater Heroism, Bull's, Spider Skin, IMA, GMW) has :
AB 36/36/31/26
AC 35
Deals about 26 damage per hit (2d6 + 5 from weapon, +13 from strength 28, +2 from specialization)

If you're telling me that this can solo things that a level 30 character with epic gear can't, well, god, i'm impressed at how these characters must suck, because it's not like it's hard to attain these values.

Edit. Note that if you consider that it's not logical for a summon creature that's buffed like there's no tomorrow to be able to solo something (with or without some help from it's master), well you should start nerfing all summons spells.

And animal companions.

Not just CGU.

The biggest advantage of CGU is the fact that it regenerates, while elementals do not (well, at least for arcane characters... druids and clerics can have them regenerating, making them just as good as vampires for them)

[ohboy007]

Sure, go for it.

The fully buffed CGU creature (That is buffed with : Haste, Greater Heroism, Bull's, Spider Skin, IMA, GMW) has :
AB 36/36/31/26
AC 35
Deals about 26 damage per hit (2d6 + 5 from weapon, +13 from strength 28, +2 from specialization)

If you're telling me that this can solo things that a level 30 character with epic gear can't, well, god, i'm impressed at how these characters must suck, because it's not like it's hard to attain these values.

Those are some epic stats....if your character sucks huge donkey balls...

[Corax]

Sure, go for it.

The fully buffed CGU creature (That is buffed with : Haste, Greater Heroism, Bull's, Spider Skin, IMA, GMW) has :
AB 36/36/31/26
AC 35
Deals about 26 damage per hit (2d6 + 5 from weapon, +13 from strength 28, +2 from specialization)

If you're telling me that this can solo things that a level 30 character with epic gear can't, well, god, i'm impressed at how these characters must suck, because it's not like it's hard to attain these values.

Those are some epic stats....if your character sucks huge donkey balls...

It's super epic, actually. It's an Undead (ECL), it regenerates, and it's buffed with 3rd circle spells or less...which leaves your arsenal intact. If you can play this game, you have to factor in the ridiculously powerful wizard behind this monster, and the ridiculous combo this constitutes. And this, said by a wizard's perspective. And not just any wizard: a PM 10, and heavily reliant on summons (EXCLUSIVELY the necromantic ones, for RP reasons).

Factor everything in, when you consider the summon's stats.

[breteas]

I know right?

Like I didn't check stats on summon while testing this. Wait.. are you saying UD is actually easy.. Laenor? Oh wait.. It is.. I saw nothing down there even coming close to what is on surface.

[Laenor]

I've been there with my wizard, so I know what you're talking about.
The only dangerous thing about these salamanders is the fact that they are spellcasters.

A CGU alone won't last too long against them if you don't help it at all.

@Corax : If the rest timer was lower than 20 minutes at epic levels AND if you were able to rest anywhere, I'd agree with you.

But as it is, there's no way to play an epic wizard without having to rely on summons or dominate monster without feeling gimped except for the 5 minutes of glory when you're using the 20 level 7-9 spells of your arsenal for a total of about 120 damage per spell.

So, yeah, do factor the limitations of a wizard when considering the summon stats. Without a proper summon, I would never even bother with playing a wizard in the first place when any competent melee, divine or bard build can do just as good without having to rely on a NPC that they have to manage.

The only builds I can't talk about are rogue-ish builds, since I've never played one past level 10, but If I had to guess, I'd say that HIPS is a get out of jail free card that let's them kill things just as good.

There's three way to play an epic wizard when you're "grinding" :
- AoE killing of several CR 20 creatures
- Summon/Dominate + Support damage to kill CR 25+ creatures
- Direct damage.. that implies waiting 10 minutes to be able to rest after spending 3 to 5 spells per creature you want to kill (Epic creatures with 300+ hp require 3xMaximized IGMS to kill. That's the highest damaging spell at level 8 a Wizard can cast.)

Or you can play in a group. And watch people melt things with your buffs, and cast spells sometimes. But you can't always group, and not everyone likes to play in a group (nor does every character archtype do fit in a group : playing in a group hinders the use of pretty much all of my bloodmage / necromancer evil abilities - yay ! that sounds so much fun)

[breteas]

So, yeah, do factor the limitations of a wizard when considering the summon stats.

Wizards have no limitations.

A CGU alone won't last too long against them if you don't help it at all.

Odd I thought this thread was about PM summon (Vampire) being weak as opposed to CGU.

And my vampire (PM summon) can handle Netherese spawns. I think you are confused here, Laenor.

[Corax]

I've been there with my wizard, so I know what you're talking about.
The only dangerous thing about these salamanders is the fact that they are spellcasters.

A CGU alone won't last too long against them if you don't help it at all.

@Corax : If the rest timer was lower than 20 minutes at epic levels AND if you were able to rest anywhere, I'd agree with you.

But as it is, there's no way to play an epic wizard without having to rely on summons or dominate monster without feeling gimped except for the 5 minutes of glory when you're using the 20 level 7-9 spells of your arsenal for a total of about 120 damage per spell.

So, yeah, do factor the limitations of a wizard when considering the summon stats. Without a proper summon, I would never even bother with playing a wizard in the first place when any competent melee, divine or bard build can do just as good without having to rely on a NPC that they have to manage.

You are right! In fact, those classes mentioned all grind better and easier than you. Takes a very skilled, precise wizard who calculates well, plans better and never screws AoE up to even keep the pace in the league of those, not match them...The trade off is: you kill them all in PvP.
This is a team game. Balance is tuned around teamplay.

The only builds I can't talk about are rogue-ish builds, since I've never played one pas level 10, but If I had to guess, I'd say that HIPS is a get out of jail free card that let's them kill things just as good.

Let me tell you this, then: Rogues are the "weakest" powerful characters in game (still strong, mind you!), because of their glaring weaknesses. They are awesome in certain areas, extremely weak in many others, and there is little to be done about it. You can cover with UMD, but barely.

There's three way to play an epic wizard when you're "grinding" :
- AoE killing of several CR 20 creatures
- Summon/Dominate + Support damage to kill CR 25+ creatures
- Direct damage.. that implies waiting 10 minutes to be able to rest after spending 3 to 5 spells per creature you want to kill (Epic creatures with 300+ hp require 3xMaximized IGMS to kill. Heh)

More or less. You're better than that, I believe. I surely am. But the general situation is that.

Or you can play in a group. And watch people melt things with your buffs, and cast spells sometimes. But you can't always group, and not everyone likes to play in a group (nor does every character archtype do fit in a group : playing in a group hinders the use of pretty much all of my bloodmage / necromancer evil abilities - yay !)

You play with the wrong group

[ohboy007]

Sure, go for it.

The fully buffed CGU creature (That is buffed with : Haste, Greater Heroism, Bull's, Spider Skin, IMA, GMW) has :
AB 36/36/31/26
AC 35
Deals about 26 damage per hit (2d6 + 5 from weapon, +13 from strength 28, +2 from specialization)

If you're telling me that this can solo things that a level 30 character with epic gear can't, well, god, i'm impressed at how these characters must suck, because it's not like it's hard to attain these values.

Those are some epic stats....if your character sucks huge donkey balls...

It's super epic, actually. It's an Undead (ECL), it regenerates, and it's buffed with 3rd circle spells or less...which leaves your arsenal intact. If you can play this game, you have to factor in the ridiculously powerful wizard behind this monster, and the ridiculous combo this constitutes. And this, said by a wizard's perspective. And not just any wizard: a PM 10, and heavily reliant on summons (EXCLUSIVELY the necromantic ones, for RP reasons).

Factor everything in, when you consider the summon's stats.

IF, you get the warrior and not the warlock. Warlock works pretty well with Gishes, but not so much with sorcerers.

[breteas]

There's three way to play an epic wizard when you're "grinding" :

The idea is to party up.