Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hawke wrote:I already said, it isn't about being better, it's about being on par.

And I posted to show they are on par, perhaps better in that they can be very good at melee classes.

mrm3ntalist wrote:What you describe is not a problem of the half-orc race but of the barbarian class, which is very low in power compared to other classes. Even if you made the build on a human, it would still be bad.

+1. It's important not to make changes for the wrong reasons. Barbarian is awful and, to be honest any melee trying to solo really is better off with umd, using wands. If we buff half orc because the barbarian class is bad that doesn't really fix the true issue.

Well,

I am done with the thread. I brought up the issue, and anyone "objectively" looking at the two Half X races would see a despairing difference between the two with the amount of positives and negatives.

I am unwilling and unable to change people's minds. I brought up the issue, I hope that it is taken seriously and change comes about. If not *shrugs* I can't stop the world from turning.

Mechanically I'd rather have a Half Orc than a Half Elf, which is really just a weaker Human. There are certainly stronger candidates for a boost.

The only thing wrong with a HOrc is the favored class, but that has always been the favored class and thems the way the dice roll. Regarding Barbarian. Is it a weak class? Maybe, but as a single class it's probably stronger than say Swashbuckler, especially with the add-ins from vanilla NWN2.

The main problem with Barbarian is that it's not as versatile as Fighter. But then, few classes are. What I'd suggest to improve things is to make the Tireless Feat available, thereby not restricting you to 17 Barbarian levels to get this vital Feat, thus opening up many possibilities.

chad878262 wrote:
Frankly I lean against buffing a monster race because, thinking about it I really don't want folks to pick the race for "power build" reasons...then we just end up with more "good" friendly half orcs running around. All due respect to Arkaine and others that play this rp, but if we have dozens of half orcs running around holding bake sales and one Dah I do not see that as good for the server.

You know you are indirectly expressing your disdain for my character concept on this server right?

I don't know what bake sales and this fairy floss presumption is about though.

I could do a much better job on yours given what he has done and others have allowed him to get away with doing for no reason that makes any kind of in character sense.

I am against players wanting to slant the lore to favour their want for this place to become be some kind of online world version of an R.A Salvatore novel set in the Spine of the World.

This is Baldur's Gate The Sword Coast Chronicles. Drizzt, Nazi regime Elves, horribly written Dwarves, and even worse - Drow Elf Mary Sues, are not the central focus of the setting.

All of those things belong in the Spine of the World, further north of The Sword Coast. The setting doesn't support some kind of eternal war between Elves and monstrous and dull witted Orcs as being the main focus. If anything this sort of thing should be far away in the background, because it doesn't belong in the Baldur's Gate region.

The central focus of the setting is supposed to be Baldur's Gate, The Sword Coast, Amn and Tethyr, and its people. The themes and organizations explored in the old Baldur's Gate Series of games from the 90's-2000s.

The themes of the server should belong to the chief regions explored in the Baldur's Gate series, those of The Sword Coast, Amn and Tethyr. And anywhere else added on at this point.

chad878262 wrote:I just don't get this. Half orc is better at melee classes than half elf.

He should be better at melee classes than Humans as well. And all of the other mundane ecl +0 races. That is his niche. The price the Half Orc pays is that he is the worst at Wizardry type classes.

Humans are supposed to be defined by their moderation and social stability in the realms. They aren't particularly good at anything except for being malleable and lucky. You can find Humans of all professions across the length and breadth of The Forgotten Realms.

chad878262 wrote:The reason to pick any race should be at the players desire, be it rp out power building

But I am pretty sure it still says somewhere in the rules section of the forum that "powergaming" is discouraged.

I mean this server has always run on an honour system that practically no one except myself and a couple of others ever followed, but still . . .

How is this server promoting role play and the lore of the setting by using any means at its disposal to discourage people from playing anything that doesn't belong to a small powerbuilding niche.

Humans, Aasimar, Elves and Dwarves. And pretty much nothing else is supported.

matelener wrote:Let's compare two min maxed fighters.

H-orc: 20 STR / 13 DEX / 14 CON / 12 INT / 8 WIS / 6 CHA

Human: 18 STR / 14 DEX / 14 CON / 12 INT / 8 WIS / 8 CHA

Why are you making a comparison of min/maxed characters at all. This kind of thing is supposed to be discouraged, and should not be the basis for how characters and classes are balanced for the server.

You have just compared two characters who should be above average at mathematics, but otherwise share debilitating personality and developmental disorders. And they would never be able to make any use for their great physical abilities because they would be able to hold a career.


And Thorsson. I looked up what Monty Hauler means. Someone who loves loot and gold and more power, but doesn't want to work for it.

I know you can't have been calling me a Monty Hauler. That would truly be crazy given the amount of effort and jumping through flaming hoops, and giving a damn when one else would - that I have put into everything I have done on this server.

Thorsson wrote:I think WotC have been boosting everything since they took over D&D. There's money in catering to the monty haulers. Luckily we're playing 3.5Ed and not 5th. Well, we have been so far...

The 3.0 and 3.5 Editions of the game are widely known to be the most garbagy and unbalanced of all editions in terms of game mechanics.

The only thing this era had going for it was the amount of carry over lore from 2nd Edition that remained to keep the setting from a complete transition of watered down (hatred of men/weak men - powerful women and effeminate Elves only) feminist garbage.

And also the video game 'Neverwinter Nights' phenomenon amongst the players of these kinds of games, that sprung up at the start of the 2000s, and revived interest in it all for Wizards of the Coast.


I still stand by this being the thing to do:

Size: Medium

+2 Strength, +1 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma

Favored class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc's barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an XP penalty. Ferocity runs in a half-orc's veins.

Darkvision - Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Bloodied - +2 Spot, +2 Initiative.

(New)Self Sufficient - Specifics: This trait grants the character a +2 bonus to the Survival and Heal skills.

(New)Powerful Charge - Specifics: Listed elsewhere on the forums.


It fits the Half Orc lore in regards to the setting more than any other suggestion made.

Powerful Charge makes up for the lack of Headlong Rush, and Self Sufficient fills in the lack of having half a dozen interesting little +1 to skills or save against type feats that the other ECL+0 races get.

D&D isn't mechanically fair, it's not designed to be, and not meant to be. So is NWN2.

From another thread but really applies a lot to here as well. I think this sums it up perfectly. There are more powerful races than some others. KIND OF THE POINT!

You know you are indirectly expressing your disdain for my character concept on this server right?

You are aware of the disdain you express to nearly everyone in your posts right?

Calodan wrote:From another thread but really applies a lot to here as well. I think this sums it up perfectly. There are more powerful races than some others. KIND OF THE POINT!

No Calodan, you misunderstand what was said in that other thread entirely. The whole 'DnD isn't supposed to balanced and nor should it be is not about the balance being Rock/paper/scissors.

The players who reiterate that line use it as a justification to mean that there are certain classes and races that are just plain superior in every way without any scale or measurement applied to the mechanics.

That in comparison to other classes and races, these specific ones have no downside or weakness.

That is the epitome of a Mary Sue, and is not only ungainful but bad news for any server or online game world.

If you would go back through this thread you would see it mentioned that the ECL rating is the scale for how powerful a particular race is supposed to be.

That means all ECL+0 races are equal in power, and are designed to be less powerful than all ECL+1 races.

That is the design intention.

If I were you, I would not try to presume what I am trying to say.

I can take Half-Orc, and make powerbuilds. With any class. I can wipe the server's floor with Half-Orc characters any day. The problem you have isn't Half-orc. Your modification to the Half-Orc class aren't going to change your mechanical situation, nor the situation of any other Half-Orc.

In the other post, I didn't talk about races, I talked about characters. There's a world of difference, and it has nothing to do with Mary Sue. It has to do with D&D. If you look for balance, you need to play balanced games. This one isn't it.

Atlas wrote:You know you are indirectly expressing your disdain for my character concept on this server right?

I don't know what bake sales and this fairy floss presumption is about though.

I could do a much better job on yours given what he has done and others have allowed him to get away with doing for no reason that makes any kind of in character sense.

I wasn't saying your character does this Arkaine, the reason I said "all due respect" specifically to you is because you have been playing the same PC for so long and have specific RP surrounding him. I, in fact have no disdain for your character what-so-ever and, in fact I like the uniqueness to him. (though it is good to know how you feel about mine or my ability to play him, thanks)

Anyway, the point was that in any given week you can go to the FAI and meet a half orc or, even worse a GREY ORC handing out meat on a stick or baked goods chatting with folks with NO ONE batting an eye. I would think you of all people would dislike this as it goes against the lore of the race. It's one thing to be 'good' but quite another to have most orc/half orc PC's acting as if they have no orc blood at all running through their veins. I see it as no different than having Drizzt clones running about the surface.

In any case, I truly do apologize if you saw my post as calling out Arkaine, I have never seen him doing anything of the sort and in fact I think you do a good job of showing the struggle between the orcish part of his blood and his desire to be a true Paladin. I have a feeling you know much less about Cranston then you think though and I'd be interested in hearing what you feel others allow him to 'get away with'.

chad878262 wrote:I wasn't saying your character does this Arkaine, the reason I said "all due respect" specifically to you is because you have been playing the same PC for so long and have specific RP surrounding him. I, in fact have no disdain for your character what-so-ever and, in fact I like the uniqueness to him. (though it is good to know how you feel about mine or my ability to play him, thanks)

Anyway, the point was that in any given week you can go to the FAI and meet a half orc or, even worse a GREY ORC handing out meat on a stick or baked goods chatting with folks with NO ONE batting an eye. I would think you of all people would dislike this as it goes against the lore of the race. It's one thing to be 'good' but quite another to have most orc/half orc PC's acting as if they have no orc blood at all running through their veins. I see it as no different than having Drizzt clones running about the surface.

In any case, I truly do apologize if you saw my post as calling out Arkaine, I have never seen him doing anything of the sort and in fact I think you do a good job of showing the struggle between the orcish part of his blood and his desire to be a true Paladin. I have a feeling you know much less about Cranston then you think though and I'd be interested in hearing what you feel others allow him to 'get away with'.

Alright.

In that case I misunderstood your meaning entirely. And I do agree fully with what you are saying here in your post.

I apologize for the remark I made in unduly haste, if it means anything to you. Sorry for bringing this whatever it is issue into this thread.

Atlas wrote:He should be better at melee classes than Humans as well. And all of the other mundane ecl +0 races.

You got it wrong again. Humans are supposed to be good at everything; the only thing Half Orc is supposed to be better at than a Human is Barbarian.

Actually though, here on BGTSCC, due to the changes, he's probably better at one or two other things as well - just not anything that requires more than 12 Int.

Atlas wrote:And Thorsson. I looked up what Monty Hauler means. Someone who loves loot and gold and more power, but doesn't want to work for it.

Exactly. Like getting their Race, Class or Feats upgraded. Exactly what every whingeing thread on BGTSCC is about, as I said.

Atlas wrote:The 3.0 and 3.5 Editions of the game are widely known to be the most garbagy and unbalanced of all editions in terms of game mechanics.

I presume that you have a scholarly source for this claim? In any case, D&D has never been balanced, from the very first edition. Something many people have tried to tell you, but you just put your hands over your ears and shout "Na NA Na Na".

Atlas wrote:The only thing this era had going for it was the amount of carry over lore from 2nd Edition that remained to keep the setting from a complete transition of watered down (hatred of men/weak men - powerful women and effeminate Elves only) feminist garbage.

Are you actually roleplaying a Half Orc at all? Sounds like you really are a caveman.

If i see more snide comments appearing in this thread, i will lock it! Stay on topic and behave.

Absolution

Six pages long and I still havent seen an example where the Half-orcs "suck" compared to other races...

Its good to talk in Theory but in order to express your thoughts, an example would go a long way. In any case, the QC will go over the background feats and races and see if something can be done/changed/added. But without any specific examples of where a race/feat is lacking, any cahnges might not be what the players envisioned.

Add a poll if you want. Something like -

Increase base attributes

Add skill bonuses/feats

No changes

New orc/Horc only class

Nerf them

Other

Let people vote to show which way the forum is leaning. QC will do what they think is needed regardless and we really need to stop personal attacks on characters/knowledge of lore/RP.

This thread has served its purpose as QC has kindly decided to take a look at this:

Karond wrote:To the OP, I made a topic about this in QC.

Beyond that, the slide into personal attacks and off topic discussion have reduced the value of further discussion here.

If there are points to tease out for discussion please start a new thread.

Thankyou to those who stayed on topic, and civil.

Thread locked.