Should the quests be considered OOC?

[Invoker]

Is there not a difference between "it is," "you can," and "I want?"

There is, and I understand what you mean.

XP gain of any sort is not, nor should it be, considered a given. In principle.

For instance, this is what you want.

But at the moment what I hear many saying is: "I paid my quarter so I have the right to win this video game." Which we know is just not how it works!

Except, leveling up isn't winning. Nobody should be forced to "pay their quarter" just to complete their character development accordingly to the RP they wish to follow.

You like to RP lowbies, it fits your RP concepts. Many others aren't like you. And this server has always claimed to be "catering to everyone".

If that changes, perhaps many people's interest will lessen.

[Theodore01]

Quite simply, not distrubing anyone running with an AFK tag up. Hell, I could solo and have that tag up 100% of the time and be within the server rules.

AFK = away from keyboard Can't see why that needs any further clarification.
If you or anyone moves or interacts with his toon, then he is not AFK.

And it is really immersion breaking, if toons run around with tags like 'AFK' or 'Ignore me i'm not there''. That's just plain wrong.

[thids]

That quests do give a reliable XP gain, is still not a given, in principle. It is however what players take advantage of...and I'm advocating they do it in-character (but consider the quest dialogues OOC for all the reasons already said).

Those who designed the xp system decided to take away from xp gains in epic levels, and make this server a grindfest. The quests are a way to make up for that and relatively control the speed at which people get to level 30. If I have a desire to progress my character mechanically and the mental fortitude to go through the attrocious experience of running the surface quests, the xp from quests is a given. In fact, I can even go as far to say that I'm entitled to it since the only other viable way to gain xp has been altered in such a way that itrequires even more mental fortitude and an abundance of free time. This is all in an environment where numerous players receive xp rewards for their OOC work on the server. Which I don't have much of an issue with, hower that type of xp is a given, just like the xp gain from quests.



As a side note, I never ignore people trying to interact with my characters when I run quests, but I won't lie and say that it is not annoying trying to explain how the person who just left the chieftains room killed a doppelganger and how my character is there to kill the real one.

[Tantive]

Job quests, that are like regular supply stops for instance taking the goods from Baldurs Gate to Beregost could well be considerd IC. Though for instance the Hin quest for the key, could be not unless they like to hide their keys everytime.

[Snarfy]

The solution seems rather simple to me:

a) Make quests one time only, and IC mandatory.
b) Raise XP per kill to 100+ for equal CR enemies. Adventuring must be IC.

I think this would result in 3 things:
1. The DM'S would have to monitor groups/grinders more(only a sadist would want that job )
2. Less characters in RP centers/cities/settlements causing less casual RP[as if that weren't hard enough to find]
3. Players who are often unable to find others to RP with(like me), those who hate grinding(also like me), and those not likely to "adventure" with a group lose the means to gain XP almost entirely.

Overall, this could very likely push the server in a more grind-centric direction than is already occurring. Personally, I'd rather see the XP per kill lowered than raised if the quests are made 1 shot only, and RP xp given a boost*.

[Snarfy]

If I have a desire to progress my character mechanically and the mental fortitude to go through the attrocious experience of running the surface quests, the xp from quests is a given. In fact, I can even go as far to say that I'm entitled to it since the only other viable way to gain xp has been altered in such a way that it requires even more mental fortitude and an abundance of free time. This is all in an environment where numerous players receive xp rewards for their OOC work on the server. Which I don't have much of an issue with, hower that type of xp is a given, just like the xp gain from quests.

Quoted for truth.

[Invoker]

I don't see why any of those three things would occur.

1. It would be just like now. There are rules on PvP, and yet, I don't see the DMs trying to stop in real time any transgression. Just like in those cases, you would SS the offender and report. Same level of control we have now.

2. I don't think that's related at all. If anything, less pressure and time investment in leveling might very well cause MORE of said RP, rather than less.

3. Finding others to RP with would be unaffected, grinding wouldn't exist (you kill a few enemies and level up) and you can "adventure" alone just like now. Why wouldn't you?

If you lower the XP per kill, you increase grinding. Together with removing quests, you push the server into grinding mode even more. Those who like it, won't care. Those who are tired of it will leave.

[Snarfy]

3. Finding others to RP with would be unaffected, grinding wouldn't exist (you kill a few enemies and level up) and you can "adventure" alone just like now. Why wouldn't you?

Because it wouldn't be a few enemies in the higher levels, it would still be hundreds, aaand.... that would make me want to bludgeon myself with my keyboard. I absolutely do not have the capacity to stay in one area and kill more than 10 monsters without wanting to log off and go do anything else with my life, including taking up knitting as a hobby! Err, but that's just me.

If you lower the XP per kill, you increase grinding. Together with removing quests, you push the server into grinding mode even more. Those who like it, won't care. Those who are tired of it will leave.

I see your point and I don't... if you raise the RP xp as well then the RP'ers get amply rewarded for playing on an RP server and are more likely to congregate(maybe even while adventuring), and the grinders... well, who really cares if they have to grind more if they'd rather grind for XP than RP? It's shameless favoritism, I know, but I don't feel guilty.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Quite simply, not distrubing anyone running with an AFK tag up. Hell, I could solo and have that tag up 100% of the time and be within the server rules.

AFK = away from keyboard Can't see why that needs any further clarification.
If you or anyone moves or interacts with his toon, then he is not AFK.

And it is really immersion breaking, if toons run around with tags like 'AFK' or 'Ignore me i'm not there''. That's just plain wrong.

I have to agree, If this is allowed then everyone may as well do it. Good news, is something inconvenient? Just pop the >AFK tag on and gain instant oocness! Oocly grind using greater undead alongside a paladin! Oocly do quests! Oocly explore the opposing factions guildhall! Oocly be immune to PvP! Oocly be immune to pickpockets! Oocly be invisible while spying! Oocly do the RP xp exploit! Etcetera.

I myself admittedly use the AFK tag for when I type "OOCLY PICKING UP ANOTHER PLAYERS TRASH FOR THEM." and pick up the pile of alesteins y'all leave everywhere to crash the server with. I simply can't fit "picks up refuse so the world doesn't end" into any character concepts.

[flipside43]

You missed my point then. You think it's great for people to run around in circles, because it means a lot of traffic to certain areas, onto which you can park yourself and ambush people with RP, I assume? Yet as I pointed out, the mere action of visiting certain areas is only for the quests. Several characters would never go to certain areas IC if it weren't for the quests. If the quests are OOC, so is them being in that area if they so wish. That seems to be the thing that you and others are unwilling to accept?

I wouldn't equal doing a quest with running in circles like grinding, hardly so. Ambushing people with RP? Are you really asking me if I regularly metagame quest paths with my characters? And yes, I am saying if players wouldn't do the quest in character, it shouldn't be done. For what it's worth I practice what I preach.

If we quote the server rules, here is the relevant part:

"You can go out-of-character (OOC) if there is need for clarifications, or if you wouldn't be disturbing role-play around you by doing so "

Quite simply, not distrubing anyone running with an AFK tag up. Hell, I could solo and have that tag up 100% of the time and be within the server rules.

I would agree with Steve on this. Running by me with an AFK sign is highly disruptive to me.

In any cast, I agree with Invoker about raising XP from kills. Increasing leveling that way will help offset any of these issues with quests. Grinders will still grind but those who wish to RP will have less weight on them to go get their levels and will be free to go find RP. Even if they wish to keep the same daily progress, if it takes a 1/3 of the time, they can spend their remaining time RPing.

[Snarfy]

I would agree with Steve on this. Running by me with an AFK sign is highly disruptive to me.

In any cast, I agree with Invoker about raising XP from kills. Increasing leveling that way will help offset any of these issues with quests. Grinders will still grind but those who wish to RP will have less weight on them to go get their levels and will be free to go find RP. Even if they wish to keep the same daily progress, if it takes a 1/3 of the time, they can spend their remaining time RPing.

I am not a fan of the idea of constantly running around with an AFK sign up, but I have absolutely no problem with doing it if I am pressed for time IRL and wish to maximize my in-game time/ability to get quest XP. Sometimes I just don't have the time to wander the server looking for people to RP with, and sometimes I am simply not in the mood to do so.

I am also not a fan of the idea of raising XP from kills if it means the removal of quests, and I'll use myself as an example to explain why:

I have 1 main character and about 8(or is it 9?) alts. By removing the quests and raising the XP per kill count, I am literally forced to have to seek out characters or a group that are IC'ly compatible with whichever character I am playing at that time in order to progress my character and get them experience points(be it from RP or *shudder*... killing mobs). I am simply not the type of player who will sacrifice his character concept or compromise my characters RP by grouping with characters who mine do not jive with just for the sake of getting XP. I have even walked away from numerous DM events based on character incompatibility for this reason. I will also not go "adventuring" with hyperactive mutes running around full tilt slaughtering everything in sight. This is about as immersion wrecking, for me, as it gets.

Basically, I would have to wander for hours/use the scry(yay meta) to find characters compatible with mine, and possibly risk being intrusive upon their RP, in order to progress my characters... this seems like a lot of work, and not very fair when you consider that grinder-mentality players who don't have a care in the world about who they group with will be able to gain XP at will. It's a pretty harsh trade off to be faced with the prospect of getting ZERO XP for my play time(if I cant find anyone), compared to the 8 - 10K worth of experience per week that is otherwise available to me when the only "adventuring" groups, likely out there in the Serpent hills/Xvart village/Nashkel foothills/what have you, are peopled with mutes or characters that mine would find disagreeable.

No thanks.

[ShortRedandLoud]

I haven't found it hard to hit the level cap in a reasonable amount of time. The cap is level 10, right?

More seriously, I treat the quests as IC, although I am a scumbag, like thids, in that I maximize XP gains, because they far, far, outweigh the item/gold rewards. I do find that combat XP gains get pretty grindy at around level 8.

I have no experience with XP rewards at level 11+, though. I imagine it is a hell from which there is no escape.

[Steve]

[
You like to RP lowbies, it fits your RP concepts. Many others aren't like you. And this server has always claimed to be "catering to everyone".

Though this is tangential, I'll still bite: I've taken 3 toons to level 30. It is not JUST that I RP lowbies, it is also that I enjoy RPing a Character from lvl 1–30. It is an experience to enjoy, learn, grow and be challenged to learn how to play that Character.

It is not that I enjoy some concept of a weak character, not "epic" and not a maxed out power being. I simply believe that every PC at every level has and/or should have a fair-to-important role to play, both in this Server, and for the Player. This mentality comes out of D&D campaigns that are designed for a short level spread, where you'll never find PCs of major variance together.

And this, I believe, is an unintentional but continuing problem on BGTSCC: the "effect" a PC can have on the IC environment is equated with the level of the PC, which promotes the "need" to gain XP as fast as one can.

In addition, it is sad to read that players "can't find any RP" so they resort to questing, or grinding...as if those two things cannot also be turned into RP (which they actually can if you are not lazy about it!).

Personally—and especially since Rasael found a way to fix the RP XP exploit—I would prefer changing Quests to be 1 time affairs to give new Players an experience of the breadth of the Server, triple the output of the RP XP generator, lower the general XP payout of mobs but toughen then quadruple the payout of Bosses (pro-grouping aspect), loosen the grip on DMs handing out RP XP awards, and...institute a better system for Permadeath, so all these "gains" have some more meaning in the life/experience of our playing these toons.

Oh yeah...and NO "OOC" MODE god dammit, and no using an AFK tag for anything except being AFK (unless its an emergency).

Christmas can never come too late....

[Snarfy]

Personally—and especially since Rasael found a way to fix the RP XP exploit—I would prefer changing Quests to be 1 time affairs to give new Players an experience of the breadth of the Server, triple the output of the RP XP generator, lower the general XP payout of mobs but toughen then quadruple the payout of Bosses (pro-grouping aspect), loosen the grip on DMs handing out RP XP awards, and...institute a better system for Permadeath, so all these "gains" have some more meaning in the life/experience of our playing these toons.

I agree 1000000 % with all of these ideas. I would be perfectly content with quests being one time only as long as the incentive to actually RP, and not bloody grind, to get XP was raised. I don't have any brilliant ideas on how to handle the allotment of XP payout for killing mobs, but I would lean towards something simple, like flat rates per zone, such as: CR 1 - 5 zones = 10 xp, CR 6 - 10 zones = 15xp, and CR 10 + zones only giving 20 xp per kill.

In addition, it is sad to read that players "can't find any RP" so they resort to questing, or grinding...as if those two things cannot also be turned into RP (which they actually can if you are not lazy about it!).

I find it far easier to find RP while questing, as I come across a far more diverse range of character types while doing it. If I head to a grinding zone I usually end up leaving 30 seconds later, because watching elves or dwarves group with grey orcs, or seeing characters summoning devils or undead to assist them in the mute-grind fest without repercussions, or anything of that implausible immersion whalloping variety, just ruins it for me. Plus, I cant create meaningful RP out of behaving like a genocidal psychopath. But, hey, maybe that's just me.

And yes, it is really sad that players cant find RP. But when you consider the up and down nature of the quality of RP that transpires on BG, it's really not that surprising. In the last month I have personally only RP'd on 4 or 5 occasions and accumulated maybe 2 - 3 hours of role-play with my main character, and I log him on every day. Rather than quit the server outright due to the utter boredom that accompanies not finding any meaningful RP, I turn to the catharsis of trying out different characters/builds/RP concepts with my alts, and while it's sometimes easier to find RP with them(because they aren't reclusive jerks... well, most of them aren't), and because of my aversion to grinding, they sometimes literally are dependent on quest-gained experience to progress at all.

[Karond]

And it is really immersion breaking, if toons run around with tags like 'AFK' or 'Ignore me i'm not there''. That's just plain wrong.

It's like OOC in this context, as its been used as that by for example Gray Orcs. I don't see how that's wrong. I can barely count how many times I've seen characters rush past my character when they've been standing there alone or talking with some others. Should we all either say "oh, that person seems like they were in a hurry. In the ethereal realm", or just ignore the character because we know they're running towards a questgiver? It's more of a courtesy to have the AFK tag up, as that means the characters I run past should just ignore my presence rather than ponder. Personally, I don't see how that's worse than just running through your group. At least the one with the sign up gives them a way to continue their RP without the instance affecting them.

XP gain of any sort is not, nor should it be, considered a given. In principle.

Of course it should be. We should all more or less have the same opportunity for xp progression as everyone else. I just see the wrong in the view you and others have taken here. It's basically punishing some characters, and specifically gray orcs. It's steering people towards certain kinds of characters, and not others. It's limiting.

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I don't think 1-time quests will do it. If it's an isolated change, the payout needs to be substantial to cover up for the current xp through quests gain. But even if its combined with some other change, it promotes people to do quests as late as possible for the mechanical benefit. Do quests early and you must spend a much longer time levelling up in the epic levels. I do very much prefer just speaking to an NPC named Gary in the nexus once every week, and get like 7500 xp from the conversation. Hey, introduce the idea someone mentioned with rules questions. 5 easy questions, 1500 xp per correct answer.