Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hoihe wrote:

Incarnate wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote: Besides, magic requires genius level intellect or inborn gift. Not everyone has either of those.

And you can't do everything with magic. Read Magic of Faerûn.

That would be quite incorrect, and the rules actually reflects this.
According to the rules: Casting ability needs to be 10+spell level in order to learn and cast spells from the specific spell level.

10-11 is considered average level.
14 is just under genius level.
15 is genius level.
20+ is in the beginning levels of godlike.

So obviously, the higher the spell level, the less likely the beings who can learn and wield it will become. Unfortunately, because of how the game is, many such beings will an almost common sight - which is a really poor reflection of how it actually is in Forgotten Realms. Some areas have more emphasis on magic, like for instance Thay, and some areas have a really low emphasis on magic, and others it somewhere in between.

Personally I do think its important that spells retain that level of importance and it isn't as trivial as its made out to be, because every arcane & divine spellcaster, eventually run out of their daily power and need to rest, where normally it would take about 8 hours of FULL UNDISTURBED rest, then for any spellcaster who prepares spells it would take more time when also factoring in the individual would need memorize and/or pray for spells, which easily could take more than an hour or more to complete. Another thing that isn't even factored in, but both arcane & divine spells require spell components and some more specific material components that can very difficult to obtain, or exceedingly difficult. This means that the spellcasters wouldn't just hurl spells around unless it was actually deemed important enough to solve it through magic, firstly because magic is a finite resource thats physically and mentally taxing to cast, secondly there could be costs involved that wasn't negligible and the cost most certainly would increase with spell level. So, spellcasters wouldn't just go about and throw spells around just for the sake of casting spells, so when spells are cast in FR, its generally because the purpose matters enough for it to be solved through magic, because quite often there would be mundane solutions to it. Even spontaneous casters such as Sorcerers and Favored souls, still need to use spell components, so this would be true for them aswell. There is a reason why many mages/wizards/clerics offers their magical services for gold, firstly because they can make a good living that way, but certainly also because they need to when they offer their magical services because otherwise they will run a deficit business, because most spells have an actual cost. The only ones that would care less about this would be warlocks and other invocation-based caster, as their power comes from powerful entities..... well at least that is how its presented in the lore, and the PnP rules are made to support this. The whole reason why the much use of magic would break immersion and lore to a degree, simply is due to the fact that mechanically it in this game supports quantity over quality, because you can keep resting even though the character wouldn't need the rest other than to regain spells and hitpoints...oh yea, and in the 3.5 and previous editions, one wouldn't regain all hit points with one rest, it would actually only be 1+con mod per day of full rest. However, the need for spells is made much higher due to several facts, that monsters are generally tougher, hit harder, have more hitpoints, are more dangerous and they don't reward that much xp compared to their PnP counterparts. Which basically just means, more spells and magical items are needed to overcome them.

...hence one of the reasons I suggested that arcane & divine spells should have a gp cost in relation to it spell level, because it would make spellcasters not just go about and cast spells for the sake of casting or being benevolent, they would for the most part only cast them when the spells are truly needed. Of course this would introduce some other issues on their own, but the result would be that we would see spells being used when it really mattered. It would give all the more reasons for spellcasters to actully charge for their services, which by the way isn't really a possibility to do, because if you want to charge for it, one will just find a more benevolent spellcaster who won't. If spells actually did had a cost associated with it here on the server, then those who're are offering the buffs, wards, etc. would just be that much more benevolent. Personally, I think that spells being so readily available offsets a very delicate balance, which isn't just in the terms of encounters.

Let me fix an error.

Spells take AT MOST 1 hour to prepare. This means your entire list of memorized spells. It can however take shorter, if you do not prepare as many spells as your spell slots allow, but you need at least 15 minutes to get into the right mindset.

Also, it needn't be 8 hours of sleep. As long as one doesnn't move around or exert oneself, it's acceptable as rest.

http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/arcane.shtml

1st edition - Eight hours rest followed by 15 minutes per spell level per spell memorization time.

Reckeo wrote:GP cost for spells makes no sense. It's a highly out dated mechanic. Also, since spells can be cast by a numerous amount of casters that do not have spells 'memorized', such as a sorcerer, favored soul, or bard, these spells are innate and thus not a matter of 'memorization', or 'prayer'. This is a conversation limited only to traditional learned wizard classes and clerics, and would not be easily implemented as a solution to the OP's 'tip'.

Hoihe wrote:

1st edition - Eight hours rest followed by 15 minutes per spell level per spell memorization time.

We have always used 3.5E mechanical and "fundamental" lore, with 1E historical lore. Exception is where historical lore caused a fundamental change (time of troubles).

Otherwise say good bye to multi classing.

Reckeo wrote:This is based around a notion of there being regeant components. The gold cost only represents the cost of the regeants without actually requiring players to go and purchase said items. A bit like some notions of witch craft, in order to conjure an animal you need an animal feather, a pinch of sand, and a rat's tail, or something ridiculous (and usually you are limited to being able to summon a creature that naturally exists in that area). Also, in order to cast the spell, if there is a 'somatic' component, it means that the casters hands must be free (unless an additional feat is taken), or order to represent the physical flailing of the arms, the dance around the corpse, waving your hands and holding up ash and blowing it at the enemy in order for it to form into a fireball, etc etc. This is hindered by various armors that inhibit movement, or holding a staff, etc etc.

Reckeo wrote:Also, certain criteria must be met if I remember correctly. There has to be a full moon, certain spells will not work unless it is raining, druid spells cannot be cast indoors, its actually pretty extensive.

Reckeo wrote:So, how exactly would this be mechanically represented by NPC casters? They would have all the necessary regeants, or gold cost, and meet the criteria for all the spells so that it makes sense?

Reckeo wrote:How far do you really want to go with all of this? I feel like there is a lot of cherry picking happening with this.

Reckeo wrote:This is not pen and paper, simply put. Games that require regeants to cast spells suck. Go play Ultima Online and see for yourself.

Incarnate wrote: No cherry picking. What makes you think there is cherry picking involved?

Reckeo wrote:In response to the OP's post, and after reading 'Magic in the Realms', I guess one idea would be to make Wizard, or other caster classes be through application only after review by a DM. This would be the same for multi-classing as well, much like how some of the other classes work.

Or perhaps to level past level 10 in a class, you have to then submit application to proceed past that point to represent progressing past apprenticeship. This could be a fun avenue to encourage a caster college, Candlekeep, anything really.

This used to be the case, in 2nd edition AD&D, for a druid to progress past the level of 13 or something of that, they had to go to a circle and become an arch-druid, and there was only so many Arch-Druids permitted, if more than one at all.

This was represented well in Baldur's Gate 2 in order to become arch-druid you had to past the test/trials. In Icewind Dale, there was one wizard in the town of Kuldahar, and he was on the edge of town and treated with suspicion and curiosity. He lived in a tower, sold magical items, and had a goblin familiar as a butler.

Hard to ret-con this though.

Incarnate wrote:Apprentices for mages and wizards usally end at level 5 where they take their trials - if any.
Also, becoming an arch-druid and becoming a fully fledged wizard are two very different things, I would say arch-druid and archmage would be comparable in that regard.
But I think that perhaps there should be more emphasis on representing magic more correctly, both through rp and in the game.

Reckeo wrote:These solutions, in my opinion, better reflect the ideas the OP is attempting to enrich in terms of spell casting, much more so than a simple 'gold exchange' for spells due to 'components'.

Reckeo wrote:So in this context then, I would almost argue that anyone could 'dabble' in magic, up to level 5, but then would require RP, and DM approval. This might seem kind of....restrictive, but it would better represent what the OP is suggesting.

Clerics would be different but still have certain restrictions. This might cause too much micro management to be feasible altogether though, I am sure there are many loopholes and problems with my suggestions, I just don't think gold cost for spell casting is the way.

Incarnate wrote:

Reckeo wrote:These solutions, in my opinion, better reflect the ideas the OP is attempting to enrich in terms of spell casting, much more so than a simple 'gold exchange' for spells due to 'components'.

Its a more simple approach to it that would become to easier on those who're more inclined to a more casual playstyle.
Having spells have no costs at all that normally would, really breaks immersion in my opinion and it reflects magic in a bad way.

A way around this, would be to have a spell component pouch, that basically has an amount of charges, which basically would consume a charges for each cast respectively.
The cost for replenishing this would of course be something like amount of charges x 5 gps, or similar. These spell components pouches would come with a variety of capacities, that only could be replenished at vendors that sold spell compenents. Along with this consumable that would add charges to it could be made as well, like spell runes.

So lets say someone was out adventuring and suddenly ran out of spell components, tough luck, then he/she would have to go back and get resupplied.

Reckeo wrote:

Incarnate wrote:

Reckeo wrote:These solutions, in my opinion, better reflect the ideas the OP is attempting to enrich in terms of spell casting, much more so than a simple 'gold exchange' for spells due to 'components'.

Its a more simple approach to it that would become to easier on those who're more inclined to a more casual playstyle.
Having spells have no costs at all that normally would, really breaks immersion in my opinion and it reflects magic in a bad way.

A way around this, would be to have a spell component pouch, that basically has an amount of charges, which basically would consume a charges for each cast respectively.
The cost for replenishing this would of course be something like amount of charges x 5 gps, or similar. These spell components pouches would come with a variety of capacities, that only could be replenished at vendors that sold spell compenents. Along with this consumable that would add charges to it could be made as well, like spell runes.

So lets say someone was out adventuring and suddenly ran out of spell components, tough luck, then he/she would have to go back and get resupplied.

I actually like this idea much better. The idea of a pouch, or something similar, would make for interesting RP. I also wish there were droppable spell books as 'artifacts' or something of the sort that would be highly prized by casters. Also, holy symbols.

Maybe even a seperate pouch for seperate schools of magic. One pouch contains components for evocation spells. Another for conjuration. Each time you cast a spell from the respective school, one of the charges from the respective pouch is used. High level spells require higher charges, though this may be overboard.

Regardless, it would require a bit more attention paid to spells being cast.

Also, holy symbols.

Incarnate wrote: I agree, having spell component pouches for each school of magic would make a lot of sense. Which also means that if some one were to find a spell pouch, it might actually be worth a lot. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to have various types of places these pouches could be replenished slightly through gathering.

Interchangable spellbooks would also be a very nice feature if possible, as many wizards/mages actually often end up creating many spell books throughout their time as a mage/wizard, and these spell books are known to very often be very valuable.