Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

[Syracuse]

So we'd have to reinvent what the term 'languages known' means entirely, then, to fit your description.

You either know a language, or you don't, man. There's no 'efficiency levels', let alone percentiles regarding the language, they know it or they don't. You can certainly RP being 'a little rusty with my Chondathan', but the gymnastics being applied to that explanation are pretty immense.

[Maximvs]

You either know a language, or you don't, man. There's no 'efficiency levels'

Well, the DM's job is to make a world credible with details. Once in a while, I walk around and stumble upon a tourist that asks direction in such horrible, horrible english... ha.

I assume it knows the language fully but can only speak 50 - 75% of it. A mute person can know a language, for example. Besides, I don't even need to argue this example fully, because nobody can turn in that special kind of monster anyways.

Some other guy pulled the correct info from the book. You need two things, the intelligence to speak and a proper vocal apparatus to speak a tongue. Fire, air, water and earth elementals don't have mouths. So what is there to discuss exactly?

[Syracuse]

You either know a language, or you don't, man. There's no 'efficiency levels'

Well, the DM's job is to make a world credible with details. Once in a while, I walk around and stumble upon a tourist that asks direction in such horrible, horrible english... ha.

I assume it knows the language fully but can only speak 50 - 75% of it. A mute person can know a language, for example. Besides, I don't even need to argue this example fully, because nobody can turn in that special kind of monster anyways.

Some other guy pulled the correct info from the book. You need two things, the intelligence to speak and a proper vocal apparatus to speak a tongue. Fire, air, water and earth elementals don't have mouths. So what is there to discuss exactly?

I dunno. They're made of fire, yet you can kill them with swords... have no heart, lives. Have no brain, yet thinks. Nothing even close to a system that could typically propel itself, yet does.

Look, I'm not gonna bother posting in this thread any longer. This 'point' has been posted a dozen times, and when you're willingly denying source material like the holocaust elemental, I just don't know what to say anymore. Also, I'd say that your tourist is 'learning' English, not fluent in it. We have a mechanic for that that's DM granted, learning through roleplay. When they think you've sufficiently learned the language, iirc, they grant it to you if you make enough roleplay posts pertaining to it. That's how they make that believable.

[Maximvs]

Denying? While your posts got plenty of details, none address the mouth question. Let me ask you a simple question. The fire elemental doesn't have a ( edit ) sufficiently working ( edit ) mouth. How can the druid speak common? I want details on how it's done.

[Boddynock]

Indeed, I didn't read the 5 page of huge arse posts.

I don't know exactly which basic book I read that, but one of them says that shapechanged people cannot communicate properly unless the shape allows it. Plenty of variations apply, if you're a treant, you can talk really slowly, for example? Also the Monstrous manual says the elementals only speaks their own tongue, not common.

If there's a source that contradicts another, I -personally- prefer to side with the main books than any supplement, unless the supplement is damn well written, because supplement books were really just printed to make more cash money.

Ok, so let's start with "I didn't read..." I can't have a debate with someone who is WILLFULLY ignoring my side of the argument, nothing you say has value anymore, because you have basically admitted nothing I say has merit to you and no amount of evidence can change your mind because you haven't bothered to read it. That's not a debate, your just arguing. I will address the points you brought up here, since you presented them, but after this I would encourage you to read BOTH positions if you want to take part in the debate, because that is the appropriate thing to do in a debate.

The actual text on the monster manual reads, for example: "Fire elementals speak ignan, but rarely choose to do so."

It does NOT say, as you claimed, that they only speak ignan, or that they are only capable of speaking ignan.

Secondly, fair enough, you discredit the non-core sourcebooks due to your opinion that they were only printed to make money. The fact is that they were printed, and they present rules that the core rulebooks don't cover or address. There is actually no contradiction, because no where in the CRB does it state that elementals are incapable of speaking anything other than their native tongue. However, in non-core rulebooks it does say that they can. So, no contradiction, just the core rulebooks don't address it at all, and the other do.

[Boddynock]

Denying? While your posts got plenty of details, none address the mouth question. Let me ask you a simple question. The fire elemental doesn't have a mouth. How can the druid speak common? I want details on how it's done.

People can't shape change into elementals, please supply details on how that is done, and you will simultaneously be supplying details on how a elemental speaks common...

(Hint: The answer is magic)

[Hawke]

Denying? While your posts got plenty of details, none address the mouth question. Let me ask you a simple question. The fire elemental doesn't have a mouth. How can the druid speak common? I want details on how it's done.

People can't shape change into elementals, please supply details on how that is done, and you will simultaneously be supplying details on how a elemental speaks common...

(Hint: The answer is magic)

Well,,, if you want to go with PnP... you can do anything with shapechange within the rules.

[Maximvs]

So you say that the druid magic changes the form slightly to allow normal speech?

Edit : ok scratch that. Let's first start... with the start. I'd like a specific example. What changes a person into an elemental in the first place?

[Maximvs]

I re read the first post. She talks about polymorphed druids into elementals.

Let me tell you about the feat, "natural spell"

Natural Spell [General]

Prerequisites
Wis 13, wild shape ability.
Benefit
You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.

[Boddynock]

In an effort to not repeat myself any more, I am simply going to refuse to debate with anyone who refuses to read all of the evidence presented in the debate. If you want to continue this, show a bit of etiquette and don't simply ignore the effort we have already put into presenting our arguments.

I will, however, wait for you to go back and read and would be happy to continue discussing this with you once you do. But ignoring the vast majority of the information that we have already made an effort to present is just disrespectful.

[Maximvs]

Flemix quoted what I remember reading in the lore books. DM Echo nailed it page 3, and also gives detail on how the elemental languages are spoken, which aren't normal languages spoke with a mouth and vocal chords.

You remind me of a guy on Dalelands years ago, he was in a strength contest with some halfling barbarian and he argued that ... because the halfling was shorter, he had less leverage with his arms and legs, meaning that the difference in the strength contest should be more than -2 to STR for the halfling. Did what he say make sense? Yes. Did he get what he asked? No.

Every time someone tries to contradict a direct statement ( see Flemix's quote ) with logical deductions, it's always to get some extra power. I won't call you a powergamer for requesting the ability to talk, but it still is a slight extra power, isn't it.

[Syracuse]

The native tongue of the Elemental Plane of Earth is
Terran, a deep rumbling tongue (edited down to important parts)

The native language of the Elemental Plane of Air is
Auran, a breathy, leisurely tongue

Also, aquan and ignan in no way specifically state that it is a language that demands imitation of fire or water. Infact, aquan makes no real reference towards water whatsoever. I'd also go so far as to reference the natives tongue in Africa, known as Khoisan.

The idea that these languages are nothing but the sounds their respective element creates has been imposed by others. The source doesn't make this statement.

Also, you need natural spell for the same reason you'd need it if you were a parrot or a treant. And we've determined treants speak common.

Thank you for taking the time to read prior statements, even if you are in disagreement. I appreciate that measure of respect between us, and it's by no means a easy read. But necessary to be 'caught up' in debate. I wanted to take the time to at least reply to you for doing so, not doing so felt wrong. Like I was dismissing you after all that work. I'm going to return to silence on the debate, Boddyknock seems more than willing to enjoy a good round of debate though. For me, the subject is beaten to death. Personally, I don't even play on the server any longer. I do this out of love for roleplay, and out of love for D&D.

[Maximvs]

Languages often got different dialect, like draconic, a lesser version for kobolds, another for ... magic and another for dragons...Just like the Auran tongue can be both the wind gusts of an air elemental or a plain human replicating windy sounds with some actual words... but still. Doesn't matter. Elementals doesn't have the proper mouth and vocal cords do replicate any language they want.

Saying they got a magic mouth to say anything they want is not directly stated in any books, while, once again, Flemix's quote directly states that you need a proper mouth and vocal chords to speak in a form. You can say they magically hover about, and magically do other stuff, but... One thing this debate needs is to stop these references to animals and monsters that nobody can turn into anyways. I don't care about birds, living holocausts, 4 legs on horses, 4 stomachs in cows, 8 eyes on spiders, flaming elemental hearts or whatever. I only care about the mouth.

[Boddynock]

Flemix quoted what I remember reading in the lore books. DM Echo nailed it page 3, and also gives detail on how the elemental languages are spoken, which aren't normal languages spoke with a mouth and vocal chords.

You remind me of a guy on Dalelands years ago, he was in a strength contest with some halfling barbarian and he argued that ... because the halfling was shorter, he had less leverage with his arms and legs, meaning that the difference in the strength contest should be more than -2 to STR for the halfling. Did what he say make sense? Yes. Did he get what he asked? No.

Every time someone tries to contradict a direct statement ( see Flemix's quote ) with logical deductions, it's always to get some extra power. I won't call you a powergamer for requesting the ability to talk, but it still is a slight extra power, isn't it.

I think you have reversed our positions in your example, you are the one trying to make an argument against what the rulebooks say based on real world logic and real work physics or physiology... I am stating that a description of what a language may sound like is not evidence that those are the only sounds a creature is capable of creating (like the example of birds I gave earlier), this is especially true when the creature in questions is an entirely magical being.

The crux of my argument here is that the omission of a statement in the monster manual should not be used as grounds to interpret a ruling that is unsupported by any other documentation, and in fact the capability of elementals to speak in other languages if they know them is outright confirmed in non-core sourcebooks, which you have simply discredited as a "money-making" gimick. But they WERE printed, they are still rules, and whether we like it or not, those are the only books that directly address this issue...

And Echo's post on three also describes Auqan as full of double meaning and hidden puns... Should I demand you explain how he sound of a wave crashing on the shore can make a pun? No, that is silly. That's not good debating, the same as demanding the details of how a 100% made up magical creature speaks is silly. But while we are on that topic, if you re-read Echo's post, it does say in each case that the elementals CAN SPEAK, indirectly for most, but it says it directly fr the water elementals. In fact, so does does the monster manual. No one has to detail how the creatures can speak, the rules simply say they can, period.

I even addressed Echo's assertion that the omission of other languages can be taken as intending to mean they cannot speak other languages physically. I made a counter claim about orcs being able to fly because it wasn't specifically disallowed. He countered with giants ants being able to speak, which I countered with giants ants ALSO aren't expressly granted a spoken language nor do they have the INT to learn one.

At this point, I am satisfied that elementals can actually speak any language they know according to the rules, and I am satisfied that I have proven that. The DMs can make any ruling they want, but it will be a home-brew rule until someone can actually show me rules that contradict the rules granting elementals the ability to speak other languages.

As to (I assume you mean Flasmix's quote, as I could not find a Flemix) here...


You retain your ability to speak if your assumed form has that ability.

Speech is a natural ability (see Part One); however speech has a mental aspect (your brain's ability to handle language) and a physical aspect (working vocal apparatus). You have to have both to speak in an assumed form. Furthermore, your assumed form must be able to speak naturally. If you assume the form of a creature that cannot speak or use language during the normal course of its life, you still lose the ability to speak. This distinction doesn't often come up with the alter self spell (because it doesn't let you assume a form with a type different than your own), but it can with other polymorph effects.


What does this mean in terms of Elementals? To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm); "Air elementals speak Auran, though they rarely choose to do so."

This clearly says that Air Elementals can speak Auran. As beings of the Plane of Air, they would not be visiting the Material Plane to learn Common. Auran is Common to them, so to speak. Due to the fact that they can speak, as per the ruling from Wizards of the Coast, should a Polymorphed Wizard or Wildshaped Druid assume Elemental Form, they would be able to speak any language they know due to their own 'Mental Aspect' and the physical form of the elemental already being able to speak a language.

If the chosen form cannot speak ANY language, then the chosen Polymorphed/Wildshaped form CANNOT speak either.

Why would I address that? It supports, once again with sources, the ability of an elemental shaped druid to speak any language it can. And it does NOT say a creature needs a mouth, its says it needs a "vocal apparatus" to speak, and since every sourcebook entry you can find for elementals states that they CAN speak, then they MUST HAVE A VOCAL APPARATUS. Just because it isn't explained what it is or how it works doesn't mean it isn't there... Did you actually read all of what Flasmix wrote?

[Maximvs]

Well, I guess you just consider elementals to be able to talk with a proper vocal apparatus while others don't. Your argument remains based on logical deductions, while Dm echo and flemix's quote gives the other side more substance, along with their own logical deductions.

To make your -theory- work, you need to dumb down fantastic languages to simple, modern day chinese or spanish or whatever... but if you read on other fantastic languages, like Abyssal with it's endless buzzing of sounds of animals and natural occurrences, or Infernal with it's endless titles and flattery and hidden cues, why not add a fantastic element to the elemental tongues as well? You dumb down the elemental languages to make your theory work, and when you say things like "how can the sound of crashing waves send double meanings and hidden puns" shows that you don't understand how a language works. Yes, you can send double meanings with any kind of sound, doesn't matter if they're normal english words or vibrating the stones in your body or shifting the wind around you or blowing bubbles and rattling your throat.

Your lore book quote doesn't prove your theory to be 100 % sure, yet you talk as if you are 100 % sure of yourself. See the phaerimm for example. They communicate with themselves by shifting the wind around their body ( sounds similar to an air elemental? ) and communicate with other beings telepatically, because they know common and because their mouths and vocal chords doesn't really allow it, just like you cannot talk common while in the form of a cat. Elementals aren't telepaths though. They know common but that doesn't mean they can speak it. You claim others should prove you wrong, but you are the one that must provide proof because the DM ruling is in effect and you want to break it. All you gotta do is dig in any DnD book and find an elemental that speaks common and produces the words.

Stop arguing. Open some books and find us an example of a normal elemental speaking common to some npc hero. Go on.