Bear Warrior

[Valefort]

I went with a barb 13/ bear warrior 10 / fighter 4 / fist of the forest 3 build



That's with +4 AC items and a +2 STR item, IPA activated.

I set it versus a 35 AC target for 20 rounds, total damage 3052, average 39. Not top damage but quite playable.

[Akroma666]

I don't speak whatever that is, but I assume it was "decent"

A barbarian that hits the STR cap isn't supposed to be "decent" or "playable" its supposed to be "Good" or "great" but on a timer. Once that timer goes up, you're winded, weak, and killable.

+22+4+2+1d4= ~+30 bonus damage with IPA on.. I don't know about you, but that's not considered "Good" damage in my book. Would an additional +2d6 at max level really make that big of a difference? No.. but It would however give it a slight boost from "playable" to "good" which is where the class should be to be on par with Epic Barb/Fighter purist builds.

[Valefort]

That's in the eye of the beholder, it has 52 AC and 5 regen and DR too

If bonus damage was to be added it would need to be something else than slashing as it's already the damage type of the claws, piercing would probably be picked.

[Theodore01]

Yeah, how does that to compare to a Barb20,F10 build or even a pure barbarian ? (has someone some numbers ?)

I would guess the bear performs much better in all cases.
(insane STR, high hp, +5reg. and 3 attacks * 6) That looks very powerful.


@valefort: why is the d6 electric damage applied only on one of the 3 attacks and where does it come from ?

[Valefort]

It comes from the weapon equipped, it had +1d6 electricity damage.

The bear has three weapons, 2 claws and one bite, the bonus damage from the weapon is only applied to the first claw.

It definitely does not have 18 attacks per round, I'm not sure how the attack schedule works exactly. I think one of the three weapons is picked at the beginning of the round and then used for that round, next round another claw or bite is picked and so on.

[Theodore01]

So if he would wear elem. gloves and dualwielding elem. weapons, would all 3 damages get added?

[Valefort]

No, only the damage on the gloves would be added , the rest would be ignored.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?223142

That's a damage focused barb 20/fighter 10, 47 AB and 41.5 damage while raging, 49 AC, no regen .. but inventory usage. Quite comparable to the above imo.

[Rudolph]

That's a damage focused barb 20/fighter 10, 47 AB and 41.5 damage while raging, 49 AC, no regen .. but inventory usage. Quite comparable to the above imo.

I'd have to see the Bear Warrior in non-rage mode, but I suspect it'll be worse than this build there. In any case, given that, in addition to what you mention, this Quick barb 20/10 has
1) a much better crit range (15-20 with Keen Wand),
2) another 1d4 weapon dmg or more with top tier equipment (for 43 dmg vs the 36-41 of the Bear Warrior you show, depending on which creature weapon is randomly active),
3) DR 5/-,
4) Thundering Rage (I don't know what makes it so good, but people seem to want to take it)
5) most probably at least one more rage than the Bear,
6) no very dangerous CON loss when the bear shape runs out,
7) the option to use Vampiric or other effect weapons, and
8) Evasion as well as the option to build Expose Weakness in (as well as something like Northlander Hewing or Brutal Throw for more flexibility),
I think it clearly wins out by comparison, even though the bear does have a very useful Improved Knockdown ability.

[Valefort]

Bear in mind (yes !) that I didn't fully optimized the bear warrior one contrary to the quick barb build, it's clear the quick barb will deal more damage though but it will have less AC (I know i could get at least +2 AC and +2 damage on the bear build).

Some more damage on the bear won't make it overpowered, that's sure. If anything though I'd think it would be better to give more combat abilities to the bear rather than trying to put it on par with some other build damage wise.

[Akroma666]

I think were missing a big damage comparison, the pure barbarian/fighter will still get IPA with a 2H weapon, thus giving him double damage for the single lost AB. +12 compares to the rather low max +30 Damage of a fully optimized bear warrior. A huge chunk of damage lost is instantly gained because of the ability to get your other hand.

Not to mention if you go standard rage with the con bonus and pick up fists of the forest, you make up that AC loss rather fast with Con.

I can agree with Valefort on combat abilities, but honestly, the toolbar is WAY too clunky to want more out of it. It might be neat to add bear specific abilities like the maim or multiattack, but i still think it would be nice to get the bonus claw damage progression as you level the PRC. It shows that you slowly become more skilled in mastering your transformations.

Also Vale, where did you get the +5 regen? Wiki says +4.. i feel it should have been bumped to +5 as it was approved by QC 2+ years ago because the transformation has no means of healing other than wasting a precious rage by shifting back to human form.

[Valefort]

Just use a regen cloak and you get +5 IPA was accounted for in the quick barb damage calculation (it's detailed on the build), otherwise it would be quite lower.

[Akroma666]

Just use a regen cloak and you get +5 IPA was accounted for in the quick barb damage calculation (it's detailed on the build), otherwise it would be quite lower.

Vale the IPA with a 2H weapon gives double the bonus. That's what i was referring too. We don't even get the option for bear form.

As for the regen, dire bear base should be 5, resulting in a net of +6 a round with regen cloak as approved by QC and originally stated on the wiki.

I think my biggest complaint besides lack of damage, is the viability of dire bear at epic levels.. the AC is nice, but it's not great. And the HP regen is nice, but not great. The survivability at epic levels is rather low compared to barb/fighter because of lack of skills and feats.

Since the survivability is difficult at lower levels, i would suggest adding some means to boost it. As a start, my suggestion was boosting the regen by +1 in dire bear only. I liked your new abilities idea, maybe do a cure serious wounds ability like "Lick Wound" that you can only use on self once every 30 seconds? Have it heal 3d8+6 or something? It's just enough to give it a little boost here and there and at most you will heal 30 hp every 30 seconds, which you can get 5 times per rage with max con and extend rages. This would be a maximum of 120 hp with perfect rolls.. not much, but still a nice little boost like using a heal kit in bear form.

[Calantyr]

1. Rename the class to 'Totem Warrior'.
2. Allow shifting into other animals such as wolves and big cats.
3. Enjoy a Uthgardt barbarian invasion of the server.

No joke. Even if the class didn't receive a single buff I'd still play one if it closer matched my Gray Wolf tribesman. I'm stuck playing a druid instead (even though I prefer martials).

[metaquad4]

1. Rename the class to 'Totem Warrior'.
2. Allow shifting into other animals such as wolves and big cats.
3. Enjoy a Uthgardt barbarian invasion of the server.

No joke. Even if the class didn't receive a single buff I'd still play one if it closer matched my Gray Wolf tribesman. I'm stuck playing a druid instead (even though I prefer martials).

I link this. You don't even have to change the stats, just offer a variety of animals.
Wolves
Badgers
Big Cats
Bears (obviously!)
Boar
Horse (Wild Horses are mean!)

Additionally, I think it would benefit from the following change:
Level 2: Extend Rage I
Level 4: Extend Rage II
Level 6: Extend Rage III
Level 8: Extend Rage IV
Level 10: Extra Rage

Other those two changes, I think bear (totem) warrior would be just fine if it were brought up to speed IG with its wiki iteration.

So, at the end, it'd have:
Scent, (With my proposed change, Extend Rage IV and Extra Rage), Improved Knockdown, Scent, Slashing Damage +2d6,
and

Hidden: show

Dire Bear Form: +12 strength, +8 constitution, +2 dexterity, +7 natural armor, +2 Will saves and Fast Regen +4. All claw and bite attacks have +4 enchantment. 30 base AC

I don't know if this is possible, but it would also benefit if its natural weapon was considered a two-handed weapon for the purposes of power attack. It'd make a strength-based bear warrior a little more viable.

[Seymor]

I went with a barb 13/ bear warrior 10 / fighter 4 / fist of the forest 3 build



That's with +4 AC items and a +2 STR item, IPA activated.

I set it versus a 35 AC target for 20 rounds, total damage 3052, average 39. Not top damage but quite playable.

This looks awesome Valefort. I think the equipment transferring to damage is a really sensible thing here and it always bugged me on my bear that it didn't happen. It's also good to see that fist of the forest works now.

This isn't exactly a build that I would expect to be top damage. I would expect that Barb 3/ Fighter 12/ Bear Warrior 10/ Frenzied Berserker 5 to be closer to the short duration excellent damage build that Akroma is talking about, with the obvious drawback of one rage per day.