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Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:09 pm
by Steve
BMD, you must have never tried to one-handed unfurl a scroll!
Anyway, go try and read an advertisement while someone comes at you with a bat. Tell me how far you get with your Concentration check! Lol.
And do it while holding a trash can cover.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:22 pm
by chad878262
Steve wrote:BMD, you must have never tried to one-handed unfurl a scroll!
Anyway, go try and read an advertisement while someone comes at you with a bat. Tell me how far you get with your Concentration check! Lol.
And do it while holding a trash can cover.
He has a point, though the same could be said about trying to waive your arms, recite a complex series of unintelligible words and pull the correct component from a pouch full of odd knick knacks... so maybe we should disable defensive casting and concentration, since none of us could do it, especially while being smacked about by some ogre... wait... ogre... fantasy... hmmm.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:37 pm
by Blackman D
Steve wrote:BMD, you must have never tried to one-handed unfurl a scroll!
Anyway, go try and read an advertisement while someone comes at you with a bat. Tell me how far you get with your Concentration check! Lol.
And do it while holding a trash can cover.
except... item usage requires no concentration check... so pretty far id say
and again only checks with scrolls are UMD/decipher script if you cant read it to begin with
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:27 pm
by Steve
@Chad: this is why concentration checks exist for Casters!!
@BMD: whatever the actual game mechanics are, I'm still super shocked that reading a scroll, especially in Combat, does not require a Concentration check, additional to UMD.
Or, at least, getting distracted, so the spell/reading doesn't fail, but just that one can't fight and read at the same time!
Which makes me wonder: like the scripted inability to change armor in Combat, can reading scrolls also be scripted to Fail to Read when in melee combat?!?
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:33 pm
by Steve
Oh, and I'll add this:
Activate Magic Item
Many magic items don’t need to be activated. However, certain magic items need to be activated, especially potions, scrolls, wands, rods, and staffs. Activating a magic item is a standard action (unless the item description indicates otherwise).
Spell Completion Items
Activating a spell completion item is the equivalent of casting a spell. It requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. You lose the spell if your concentration is broken, and you can attempt to activate the item while on the defensive, as with casting a spell.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/action ... ardActions
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:32 pm
by Blackman D
so you would rather make it so no melee person, non casters, can use anything in combat?
what would be the point of that? aside from pissing people off
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:34 pm
by Steve
I don't make monkeys, I just train 'em.
But seriously, M3nt expressed the opinion that scrolls of high CL aren't wanted, because XYZ. Well, elixirs also "violate" those XYZ reasons too!
Additionally, D&D rules about magic items are quoted above...so, would high CL scrolls be "tolerable" on BGTSCC if their use actually conformed to the Rules of magic item use?
You want to play a serious game, you know, the OOC one of Why and How this Server is Developed and Quality Assured? Well, I'm playing it too, and I'm bringing it!
Value judgements are made in context(s), are they not? So now I've now shown you another context in which QC can make their judgements.
You decide what you want to accept, and what you want to ignore. I'll keep playing, nonetheless.
Cheers.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 4:02 am
by Steve
How about it?
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 4:07 am
by DaloLorn
Heavens, no. Elixirs are bad enough already, and that's despite restrictions that potions/scrolls don't have.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 5:04 am
by Steve
DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 4:07 am
Heavens, no. Elixirs are bad enough already, and that's
despite restrictions that potions/scrolls don't have.
No one as of yet has successfully and logically explained why then elixirs are okay, but scrolls and potions are “managed.”
If there are going to be artificial barriers constructed and enforced, then by the gods make it apply to everything.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 5:15 am
by Louvaine
Allow me to try to explain. Elixirs require investment of 2 feats, 20 skill points at 5 character levels at lowest possible hit die, BAB progression and skill point gain. Whereas the scrolls require one feat granted for free to wizards already. Of course, elixirs don't require your UMD and scrolls do, but I don't think it's about the user, it's about the crafter and how easily they are being produced.
In my opinion, elixirs are already too powerful and it's good not seeing them flipped for profit so much anymore. Scrolls are useful in a niche and can't be counted upon to do what full spellcaster would do with the same spell (good!). Wands are at decent power level, but the entry is too low. 13 UMD is easy to get, considering +2 bonus from spellcraft and +2/+4 from heroism or greater heroism potion. Add to that your charisma and often times we're talking at getting UMD requirement hit before level 5.
Anyway, enough of my ranting.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 5:22 am
by Steve
Louvaine wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 5:15 am
Allow me to try to explain. Elixirs require investment of 2 feats, 20 skill points at 5 character levels at lowest possible hit die, BAB progression and skill point gain. Whereas the scrolls require one feat granted for free to wizards already. Of course, elixirs don't require your UMD and scrolls do, but I don't think it's about the user, it's about the crafter and how easily they are being produced.
In my opinion, elixirs are already too powerful and it's good not seeing them flipped for profit so much anymore. Scrolls are useful in a niche and can't be counted upon to do what full spellcaster would do with the same spell (good!). Wands are at decent power level, but the entry is too low. 13 UMD is easy to get, considering +2 bonus from spellcraft and +2/+4 from heroism or greater heroism potion. Add to that your charisma and often times we're talking at getting UMD requirement hit before level 5.
Anyway, enough of my ranting.
I think you’ve helped add weight to the argument that the system lacks balance!!
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 5:24 am
by Louvaine
I think it all needs to be nerfed! I want the spellcasters to be respected and feared as they should be!
Maybe all useables should require full spellcraft and UMD.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 5:44 am
by DaloLorn
Steve wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 5:04 am
DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 4:07 am
Heavens, no. Elixirs are bad enough already, and that's
despite restrictions that potions/scrolls don't have.
No one as of yet has successfully and logically explained why then elixirs are okay, but scrolls and potions are “managed.”
If there are going to be artificial barriers constructed and enforced, then by the gods make it apply to everything.
Elixirs
aren't okay, but we haven't yet come up with a way to deal with the problem without pissing people off. But yes, as Louvaine points out, elixirs are at least balanced
to some extent by requiring a specialized crafter to create. (Though even then, I want to add XP costs to discourage the use of pocket crafters.)
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 10:06 am
by Deragnost
DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 5:44 am
Though even then, I want to add XP costs to discourage the use of pocket crafters.
Although I agree with you most of the times on the changes you do, I must tell you this time that this is unnecessary: people don't do elixirs that much anymore, and those that do rarely make profit for it - not on auctions.
The moment we start to penalize players "Because they must not do this", you have to do three things imho:
1) you keep it as it is;
2) you remove it entirely, especially if the patch will make it harder than it should;
3) you give it a quantity limit of elixirs/potions/whatever that can be crafted every 24 hours.
Having potions to cost XP, even if used in PnP, is not a popular choice. I've seen it done on another server and literally nobody wanted to deal with it. How would this be different? (I'm asking.)
Do we want to limit the little crafting we have? If so, might as well remove wands and potions entirely.