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Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:55 pm
by cosmic ray
I think what some people are saying is that the sorcerer class should be made more INTERESTING as a single-class option but not more POWERFUL.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:56 pm
by Archaos
metaquad4 wrote:PRCs (Hierophant and Morninglord) give turn undead progression.
Cleric 20/Hierophant 10 vs Cleric 30. What is the trade off for taking Hierophant? 15 skill points devoted into Lore: Religion and 3 feats?
Clerics (should, because its an idea yay!) get an additional domain at levels 25, and 30. Just an idea to give pure clerics something else. Not too powerful either, especially considering its unlikely that a single god has more than 2 useful domains. Maybe bonus feats every 5 levels after 10, too? (10, 15, 20, 25, 30)
*Devolves off topic*
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Giving sorcerers a spell like ability every 5 levels (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30) would certainly fill the motif of having "lots of spells", and it would fill the levels out a little more too.
+1
I was going to comment on that, yes PrCs give Turn Undead progression so it's not an argument.
You care about Turning, you go into Morninglord and probably go CHA-based.
The only scaling class features you care about when going pure, are the various Domain powers. Those usually scale with Cleric level only but are limited.
Extra Domains at levels 20 and 30 (or somewhere there) is a thought that crossed my mind on another forum.
You increase your versatility and deity domain mastery (since you know more) without increasing your power directly.
Unless an argument is made that versatility is power.
Still, it makes a lot of sense that a Cleric that doesn't multiclass or PrC achieves unparalleled mastery of multiple Domains, since it brings them closer to their deities.
cosmic ray wrote:I think what some people are saying is that the sorcerer class should be made more INTERESTING as a single-class option but not more POWERFUL.
And this as well. Fill the empty, bland and boring levels with interesting abilities that are thematically appropriate and worth it.
Make 30 level long classes, worth all 30 levels without PrCing.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:23 pm
by Rask
Archaos wrote:metaquad4 wrote:PRCs (Hierophant and Morninglord) give turn undead progression.
Cleric 20/Hierophant 10 vs Cleric 30. What is the trade off for taking Hierophant? 15 skill points devoted into Lore: Religion and 3 feats?
Clerics (should, because its an idea yay!) get an additional domain at levels 25, and 30. Just an idea to give pure clerics something else. Not too powerful either, especially considering its unlikely that a single god has more than 2 useful domains. Maybe bonus feats every 5 levels after 10, too? (10, 15, 20, 25, 30)
*Devolves off topic*
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Giving sorcerers a spell like ability every 5 levels (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30) would certainly fill the motif of having "lots of spells", and it would fill the levels out a little more too.
+1
I was going to comment on that, yes PrCs give Turn Undead progression so it's not an argument.
You care about Turning, you go into Morninglord and probably go CHA-based.
The only scaling class features you care about when going pure, are the various Domain powers. Those usually scale with Cleric level only but are limited.
Extra Domains at levels 20 and 30 (or somewhere there) is a thought that crossed my mind on another forum.
You increase your versatility and deity domain mastery (since you know more) without increasing your power directly.
Unless an argument is made that versatility is power.
Still, it makes a lot of sense that a Cleric that doesn't multiclass or PrC achieves unparalleled mastery of multiple Domains, since it brings them closer to their deities.
cosmic ray wrote:I think what some people are saying is that the sorcerer class should be made more INTERESTING as a single-class option but not more POWERFUL.
And this as well. Fill the empty, bland and boring levels with interesting abilities that are thematically appropriate and worth it.
Make 30 level long classes, worth all 30 levels without PrCing.
Should give them bonus "heritage" feat choices every few levels. Like fey blood, dragon blood, ect ect. Would be thematically cool and doesn't actually beef up their power level enough to make them overpowered.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:49 pm
by Steve
Compared to wizards, sorcerers' instinctive grasp of magic has more flexibility within the moment but less versatility overall. That is, they do not need to prepare specific spells in advance, but each sorcerer also acquires a much smaller number of spells, since they do not use spell books and cannot simply copy new spells from others' writing. Conversely, they do not worry about carrying spell books and having them stolen.
Oh, how I wish....
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:13 pm
by Flights of Fantasy
That would be interesting, but, as I understand it, wizards can also carry multiple spell books in P&P.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:58 pm
by Hawke
Daimondheart wrote:That would be interesting, but, as I understand it, wizards can also carry multiple spell books in P&P.
They do not so much as carry, as make multiple copies of their spellbook and stash them in secure locations. Because if someone fireballs you, and your spellbook fails its save.... the wizard is screwed, which means the party is screwed for the campaign.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 pm
by metaquad4
I posted this on the suggestion's thread for this topic, if anyone things it'll be of help. Shamelessly reposting for visibility, I know. Eat a (delicious) hot dog in a bun. With some onion. And relish. And mustard.
metaquad4 wrote:Idea:
Level 1: Familiar.
Level 10: Spell Like Ability (Sorcerer/Wizard Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day.
Level 15: Spell Like Ability (Sorcerer/Wizard Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day or any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day.
Level 17: Improved Familiar.
Level 18: Spell Like Ability (Sorcerer/Wizard Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day, any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day, or any 7-9 spell and cast it 2/day.
Level 22: Spell Like Ability (Sorcerer/Wizard Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day, any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day, or any 7-9 spell and cast it 2/day.
Level 25: Spell Like Ability (Sorcerer/Wizard Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day, any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day, or any 7-9 spell and cast it 2/day. (2x)
Level 28: Spell Like Ability (Druid/Spirit Shaman Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day or any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day.
OR
Spell Like Ability (Cleric/Favored Soul Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day or any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day.
Level 30: Spell Like Ability (Druid/Spirit Shaman Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day, any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day, or any 7-9 spell and cast it 2/day. (2x)
OR
Spell Like Ability (Cleric/Favored Soul Spell List) They can pick from any 0-3 spell and cast it 4/day, any 4-6 spell and cast it 3/day, or any 7-9 spell and cast it 2/day. (2x)
Any of the above spell like abilities have the same DC as if they were cast from a spellbook, but they use CHA as their ability modifier.
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This rewards sorcerers for going pure, while still giving them something befitting of their motif. As they progress, they will gain spell like abilities, which will enforce the famous "sorcerers can cast many spell on whim". In addition, at levels 28 and 30 (which you can only get by going pure), the sorcerer gains such a pure connection with their magical blood that they can create effects not even practiced wizards can. These spell effects will still be considered "arcane", they will just be powers that the sorcerer has acquired through their extra-planar heritage.
This requires the sorcerer be completely devoted to being a sorcerer though, it seems like a good trade-off for going 30 sorcerer and giving up any PRC goodies or CHA synergy with paladin/blackguard.
In the end, they get a total of 9 different spells (6 arcane, 3 "divine") and are capable of casting each a number of times per day independently of their normal spell "book". But, again. This requires heavy devotion into sorcerer and it requires giving up all the other goodies from PRCs or multiclassing.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:21 am
by Lockonnow
well the true to the RP the wizard sould teaching the sorcerer/sorceress to lean what spell they sould pick or they sould find book so they can read what spell they do
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:38 pm
by Archaos
Lockonnow wrote:well the true to the RP the wizard sould teaching the sorcerer/sorceress to lean what spell they sould pick or they sould find book so they can read what spell they do
I like to RP that since Sorcerers are innate and instinctive casters and they automatically know verbal and somatic components to spells, they know what spells generally do.
To a Sorcerer, casting spells is like blinking or breathing. You don't need to be taught how to breathe or blink, you just know how.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:44 pm
by blowuup
I would RCR Arianna to metaquad's sorcerer so fast
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:47 pm
by Lockonnow
To a Sorcerer, casting spells is like blinking or breathing. You don't need to be taught how to breathe or blink, you just know how.
and there gos the RP
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:08 pm
by Archaos
Lockonnow wrote:To a Sorcerer, casting spells is like blinking or breathing. You don't need to be taught how to breathe or blink, you just know how.
and there gos the RP
The lore of the class is different, teaching you how to cast spells means that you're studying.
If you're studying spells, you're a Wizard, not a Sorcerer.
The closest would be to become an Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep, because it makes a ton of sense that they would seek to master their innate talents and discover the source of their powers with some personal study.
I can see some Wizards trying to teach Sorcerers how to be more scholarly, marrying the two practices.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:23 pm
by V'rass
Extra domains please... even if most of them are sub-optimal extra spells are extra spells!
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:17 pm
by vexedart
I agree going pure sorcerer is gimping yourself, but with the prestige classes available it is not a weak class, and there is no reason to not multiclass. I wouldn't mind seeing it get bonus feats like a wizard, but then I imagine a lot of wizards RCRing to a sorcerer.
Int is for skills
Cha is for rolling blackguard/paladin and lmao at pve content getting your main stat as a bonus to saving throws, and getting divine shield for main stat to AC as well, Sorcerers just make a better gish on this server.
Since gish options are very... policed.
Example swashbuckler at 5 instead of 3, no swiftblade. But it might be a good thing Gishes make sacrifices for their build, heavy feat requirements for the prestige classes available, or to make a build viable.
Honestly, clerics make for infinitely better gishes, and keep a higher BAB, automatically get the equivalent of auto still spell(being able to cast divine spells in heavy armor with a shield and a weapon in hand, access to Divine Might, without spending 4 feats.) They also have better prestige options for gishing(melee and magic), and can get a high enough UMD to use everything on the Arcane spell list anyways.
Re: Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:19 pm
by metaquad4
I doubt we would get people RCRing into sorcerers on mass, even if sorcerers got bonus feats.
Going a blackguard dip for its full potential (Auto-Still+Divine Shield) requires a significant investment in feats (3 epic feats, 3 pre-epic feats. 1 less pre-epic feat for paladins, 1 more level investment for them). Even if they got bonus feats, people will be taking PRCs (which means that people won't have the hypothetical bonus feats in their entirety, just like wizards).
Added to that, it helps that while sorcerers require CHA and INT (for skill points), wizards can dump CHA (which doesn't serve them) and focus on INT (even more skillpoints). Sorcerers have one less stat dump.
And yeah, for gishing, clerics/FvS make far superior gishes. They have a lot of powerful self-buffs for AB and damage and they don't need as much of a feat/PRC investement to make it worthwhile. Plus, they can achieve a 30 CL (making dispels unlikely at best). The above is very correct in that. Get yourself a mirror image wand, a displacement item, and you have covered the two defenses you are missing out on.