Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Honestly my biggest issue with the server isnt the power level and such, DM's and players can dance around those somewhat with proper roleplay. (at least most of the mature people can)

Its the restrictions we have here as players. There are far too many rules that stop people from really being able to live out what their character can do. Evil can't really be evil. Even good can't be good. Players rely too much on the DM's to "make something happen" rather than the DM's rewarding and improving upon good roleplay created by the factions and the players themselves.

I really think there needs to be serious talks between the players and the DM's about revamping and updating the rules. Let things happen instead of constantly wrapping red tape around things. This is supposed to be a world of conflict and great battles. People working together to fight off evil and such (even though evil cant win in most cases)

I do not see nearly enough DM's simply rewarding people for PLAYING THEIR CHARACTER.

That and the little groups of people not willing to let anyone else join in. This place is absolutely notorious for its little "cliques" IF you want things to happen you have to be willing to let others join in as well otherwise when is something ever supposed to happen?

Right now it feels like everyone is just sitting around waiting for things to happen. I remember years back when i used to do patrols with the radiant heart and now and then a DM would throw in a random encounter. Back when people were rewarded for good roleplay and were not restricted all the time. "Whats that you want to steal something from the city? ok you better be prepared for the consequences!"

Surely i am not the only one who feels this way?

((Also some people need to learn how to accept defeat with a smile. its a game after all and you cant always win))

dedude wrote:Purely hypothetical, starting from scratch, including vault wipe, there are quite a few things I would do differently. One of them is moving to an e15 variant. Game play wise it is simply a much better fit for an online game of our population size, not to mention it fits better into FR lore and D&D mechanics in general. It requires a full server content re-balance though.

#ToT_wipe

I'd be more supportive of, instead of a Great Wipe, a Great Transition.

It would be, simply, a "second Server" utilizing what we know and love in terms of Areas, and applying the e15 variant, building up from there.

The "old" BGTSCC would remain, in all its glory, being a stable experience for all those existing Lvl 30 Characters that have defined the Server for what it is.

And this new e15 BGTSCC would grow with a population of Players that want a familiar but altogether better balanced system.

It may, on the surface, sound like "double work" or something, but I fully support—in what ways I can—that which Devs/Scripters/Admin want to see manifest, in terms of better play-a-bility and, as dedude points out, "...fits better into FR lore and D&D mechanics in general."

Wolfrayne wrote:Surely i am not the only one who feels this way?

I think quite a few people feel that way. There wouldn't be such a need to have a slow grind to level 30 if there was more meaningful gameplay to be had once one got there. We need more character conflict. One cannot permakill someone or destroy a guild without consent, but anything short of that should be possible. That death is not permanent and thus make player conflict meaningless is not a good argument, imo, since this is a game and nothing is ever permanent anyway. Wars aren't even won permanently in real life. Conflict even gives more meaning to non-hostile encounters since it's far more important to have friends when you also have enemies.

Steve wrote:what does anyone think of the e15 Leveling system, like what they have going on, on the Skullport Server?

It is absolute and utter trash with no positives. It is also completely homebrewed.

I played on skullport, it feels like a version of bgtscc progression that is one hundred times slower, fifty times worse and compltetely unfun.

For example, good luck making a crafter toon with this, because you will not be seing the 3rd feat any time soon.

Basically, it is a misguided attempt to make a classic experience from pnp. In practice, they took the worst parts of the combat system, and removed the good ones. PnP experience isn't there, because the server population can't sustain it. The part of their wiki where they say that "the feeling of progression is still there!" is incorrect, because abilities you can pick up at "intermediate feats" are junk.

Long story short, the system encourages campfire RP, and due to the way the server is configured it discourages adventuring.

If you wanna watch D&D version of sitcom that happens at the same location (i.e. bar at thu hub), then E15 is for you.

Steve wrote: That mindset, imho, is created from 2 major reasons: 1) the possibility exists to easily become lvl 30 (as in no real limitation, besides RL time investment); 2) the (wrongly) perceived notion that an Epic Lvl Toon gets more RP/DM attention/has-greater-affect on the Server.

Steve, the whole "why leveling matters" thing has been explained to you many times over.

Leveling matters because it grants you progression, and because the whole system is built around it.

You simply can't be anyone powerful at level 1. You can't be an archmage, or an assassin, or a red wizard, or a thayan knight, and can't even use decent magic properly.

Feel free to test it. Grab a party of level 1 adventurers. As many as you want. Even hundred of them. Then go and slay the Great White. Have fun.

NegInfinity wrote:

Steve wrote: That mindset, imho, is created from 2 major reasons: 1) the possibility exists to easily become lvl 30 (as in no real limitation, besides RL time investment); 2) the (wrongly) perceived notion that an Epic Lvl Toon gets more RP/DM attention/has-greater-affect on the Server.

Steve, the whole "why leveling matters" thing has been explained to you many times over.

Leveling matters because it grants you progression, and because the whole system is built around it.

You simply can't be anyone powerful at level 1. You can't be an archmage, or an assassin, or a red wizard, or a thayan knight, and can't even use decent magic properly.

Feel free to test it. Grab a party of level 1 adventurers. As many as you want. Even hundred of them. Then go and slay the Great White. Have fun.

The only issue I take with this is the fact that slaying a static boss spawn doesn't really amount to much. After-all, the damn thing re-spawns infinitely and everyone can slay it at some point. So using that as proof of "strength" is a bit too 'gamey' for me, personally. After-all, anyone can grab a powerbuild off NWN2db (now that it's back up!) and with enough time spent grinding could eventually defeat tough bosses. I'm just saying static spawns shouldn't be a measurement of your character's accomplishments, or strength. "I slay white dragon's for breakfast" is silly even for a high magic environment.

NegInfinity wrote: Feel free to test it. Grab a party of level 1 adventurers. As many as you want. Even hundred of them. Then go and slay the Great White. Have fun.

This is just one of your many idiotic statements, trying to prove a point by offering a completely impossible scenario that even "dumb" characters, even dumb Players, just. wouldn't. do.

If you write complete fiction as reasoning for your position(s), you undermine your opinion with others. As has occurred with me.

The point of my statement(s), just to reiterate AGAIN, is that one can RP at and from Level 1. That is what BGTSCC supports, that is what D&D supports. It also in no way denies the importance of leveling or progression, yet, arguing that the point is that the Game only becomes important or valid to its Role-play meaningfulness when you—and I say you as the Player because for a Character, the PC, Life/progression is uncertain—become an assassin or Archmage, is blatantly denying what exists right in front of your face, man!!!

Babuguuscooties wrote: The only issue I take with this is the fact that slaying a static boss spawn doesn't really amount to much. After-all, the damn thing re-spawns infinitely and everyone can slay it at some point. So using that as proof of "strength" is a bit too 'gamey' for me, personally.

Well, this is a game. It amounts to bragging rights and does represent significant achievement. It is not something you can do easily.

Babuguuscooties wrote: After-all, anyone can grab a powerbuild off NWN2db (now that it's back up!) and with enough time spent grinding could eventually defeat tough bosses.

Have you ever fought the Great White?

Last time somebody killed the Great White I believe it took six level 30 people - that's the successful attempt I'm aware of personally. So, no, you can't grab a power build and go kill that dragon all by yourself. Getting to the point where you're strong enough to try also requires work. So, it is a significant milestone.

And in case of realm of level ones... the chances of it happening is zero. You'll need a non-level-one somewhere to even try. The great white will wipe out all level ones you can throw at it, without even getting scratched.

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The important thing people need to realize that there are different ways to play. If somebody is happy with campfire roleplay, where people sit in circle for days and tell each other long life stories, then leveling system doesn't matter. This kind of thing needs no levels and can be done in a chat client. I personally don't find this thing fun anymore.

However, when somebody wants to go somewhere, find treasure, and fight monsters, this no longer sufficient. In this case mechanical part is important and it is not longer possible to pretend that "ah, leveleing doesn't matter". Because it is. Because abilities, combat prowess what you can do and what you can kill - all of it is tied to your levels.

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Getting back to E15, I sincerely believe that this system is horrible. Basically some people hold belief that "slow progression makes things fun", and the system is built on this assumption. In my opinion, It simply doesn't work out this way in reality, although part of the issue is many design problems on skullport. Mechanical options regarding what your character can be are incredibly limited, and getting to the point where you get some key ability - even a minor one, is a grueling effort comparable to punching through the mountain. IN case of Skullports, getting to level 5 or 6 feels the same as gaining the next epic level which grants you nothing (say, from 25 to 26). it is unfun through and through.

If somebody wanted to make levels less important, perhaps a better option would be to ease leveling process or let people start at whatever level they want (and maybe forbid RCR afterwards). There were many propositions in the past, some of them by me, to ease the process, since it mostly gets in the way. Xp stipend, permadeath tokens, etc.

I also have not observed the "RP starts at level 30" attitude on bgtscc. It doesn't happen here. It does happen in some other places. In practice, I believe hitting level 30 indicates the point where the character should strongly consider jumping into nearby volcano and paying a visit to the "death" npc in nexus. The bulk of important events usually happens between level 13 and 23, and past this point things slow down a lot and there's not much to do anymore.

LOL. Good to see the same old stuff going round again. As I'm on an NWN2 sabbatical presently, I hope that I can comment objectively.

My first premise is that everyone's right.

Levelling is too fast - in the early levels.
Levelling is too slow - in the higher Epic levels.
This is because BGTSCC XP doesn't scale (unlike PnP).
Now this is by design. I happen to think the design could do with some tweaking, but someone will rationalise why it's better. As Robert Heinlein said, man is not a rational animal, he's a rationalising one. Actually it's neither better, nor worse, it's just a decision. My reason for thinking the current solution is not optimal is that the grind required for Epic levels does put some people off. Meanwhile, I (and I know others) think that lower levels are actually great fun, especially in a group, but you go through them so quickly!

Yes, it's a RP Server. But it's Medium RP. That means it isn't designed specifically for the wannabe novelists who like to sit round a campfire and spin yarns. There's plenty of room for them to do that, but there's also room for people who like to RP on an adventure - indeed that is surely BGTSCC's main attraction, for otherwise why would it have the most wonderful areas to gawk at? Not to mention, why would we need DMs if everyone sat around campfires (and if someone says "to hand out RP XP", then go to the naughty step right now - think of the poor DMs FFS!)? The point of an adventure, even though most fun is had from the RP, is to end up with some kind of reward - without this, why would the character even be venturing away from a nice warm fire and a nice cool ale?

To sum up, if XP was scaled somewhat to slow down early levels and speed up Epic levels then that would generally be a good thing - only the curmudgeonly would object ("took me forever, why should they do it faster?") and open up level 30 for those that lose patience with grinding - whether it's monster grinding, RP grinding or fishing grinding.

Equally, BGTSCC is set up for RPing while "adventuring" (I use adventure in a wide sense, to include nefarious plots, crafting, etc., i.e doing something, as opposed to sitting around jawing) and proposals should recognise this and seek to make that a fun experience.

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CleverUsername123 wrote:I still don't get the 'XP is too fast before 20' argument though. No it isn't! You can't get past 13 at all if you don't have hours to spend on this game every day.

With a group you can go places at / above your CR and get more than 50XP per mob, some area's more than 60. Factor in the lesser amount of XP needed and it is lightning quick. In fact up to ~19 it is FASTER to gain a level by 'grinding mobs' than it is by 'grinding quests' (i.e. if you just run around an area killing mobs you gain the XP at a faster rate than most players are able to complete the weekly quest runs.) However, once you hit 20 everything slows down by about ~30%, going to an area of your CR will start giving ~35-40 XP instead of 50-60. 21 + it decreases further, where you have to be at or above your CR in epics in order to earn 30 XP, otherwise you're in the 20's or lower.

Big difference when you also consider that you need more XP per level in epics as well. We'll see if anything goes in down the road to improve upon this model, but I agree 100% that the 1-20 leveling should be slowed down to where it was before it got increased while 20+ should be bumped up to be equivalent rewards. It will still be slower to level than pre-epic if you're getting ~40-45 XP per kill, but it won't be quite the slog it is today.

chad878262 wrote:

CleverUsername123 wrote:I still don't get the 'XP is too fast before 20' argument though. No it isn't! You can't get past 13 at all if you don't have hours to spend on this game every day.

With a group you can go places at / above your CR and get more than 50XP per mob, some area's more than 60. Factor in the lesser amount of XP needed and it is lightning quick. In fact up to ~19 it is FASTER to gain a level by 'grinding mobs' than it is by 'grinding quests' (i.e. if you just run around an area killing mobs you gain the XP at a faster rate than most players are able to complete the weekly quest runs.) However, once you hit 20 everything slows down by about ~30%, going to an area of your CR will start giving ~35-40 XP instead of 50-60. 21 + it decreases further, where you have to be at or above your CR in epics in order to earn 30 XP, otherwise you're in the 20's or lower.

Big difference when you also consider that you need more XP per level in epics as well. We'll see if anything goes in down the road to improve upon this model, but I agree 100% that the 1-20 leveling should be slowed down to where it was before it got increased while 20+ should be bumped up to be equivalent rewards. It will still be slower to level than pre-epic if you're getting ~40-45 XP per kill, but it won't be quite the slog it is today.

My biggest issue is seeing 25 XP per kill in the epics. It is just disheartening. If we can normalize the XP gain to 30-45 across the boards for players from 1-30 that would probably in my opinion be the best way. Enhance XP for parties up to 6 players so that when you party up XP does not go down which it currently does and thus makes only a handful of dungeons useful due to mob spawn rate outweighing the XP lost in party. I.E. If I am getting 40 XP solo in an area the second I group up it will go down to about 35 and less if more are present. I still do not understand why this happens but it does. So this server needs in my opinion to reward those who group up. Screw us soloists. This is a cooperative server and those that do what the server is intending should be rewarded.

Calodan wrote:I.E. If I am getting 40 XP solo in an area the second I group up it will go down to about 35 and less if more are present. I still do not understand why this happens but it does.

Areas can be scripted to increase Mob creation based on group size. So, if your Rate is 100 kills per hour soloing and receive 4000xp per hour, compare that with a Rate while grouping of 200 kills per hour grouped to receive 7000xp (and your friend(s) get it as well)!!!

So, it actually makes sense to lower the xp within a group because a) the danger is often much less in a group than solo, b) the paradigm is to keep leveling somewhat slow, so that the Server isn't populated with a Bajillion Epic Toons.

Obviously, having a bajillion epic toons itself is not a problem...unless you're a DM, which can really make it less fun trying to challenge a Level 30, not to mention a group. Not to mention that Epic Toon Players often feel entitled to their EPIC POWER possibilities, so if you see them fail, they can get sore at you. DMs don't like Players getting sore at them. Hi DM Team!!!

Anyway, I'm fully getting on board with lowering the XP gain from Levels 1 — 15 or so, and then equalizing the gain from Levels 15 — 30. But that is only because I do enjoy low level adventuring and DO find it hard not to breeze through the first 20 levels.

But all that aside, what would REALLY help is more low level adventures and events, made to cater to being Low Level, in order that through these storylines our Characters can find defining moment of existence, and OOC, work against the belief that only good things happen to your BGTSCC experience when your Toon is Epic (level).

Steve wrote:

Calodan wrote:I.E. If I am getting 40 XP solo in an area the second I group up it will go down to about 35 and less if more are present. I still do not understand why this happens but it does.

Areas can be scripted to increase Mob creation based on group size. So, if your Rate is 100 kills per hour soloing and receive 4000xp per hour, compare that with a Rate while grouping of 200 kills per hour grouped to receive 7000xp (and your friend(s) get it as well)!!!

So, it actually makes sense to lower the xp within a group because a) the danger is often much less in a group than solo, b) the paradigm is to keep leveling somewhat slow, so that the Server isn't populated with a Bajillion Epic Toons.

Obviously, having a bajillion epic toons itself is not a problem...unless you're a DM, which can really make it less fun trying to challenge a Level 30, not to mention a group. Not to mention that Epic Toon Players often feel entitled to their EPIC POWER possibilities, so if you see them fail, they can get sore at you. DMs don't like Players getting sore at them. Hi DM Team!!!

Anyway, I'm fully getting on board with lowering the XP gain from Levels 1 — 15 or so, and then equalizing the gain from Levels 15 — 30. But that is only because I do enjoy low level adventuring and DO find it hard not to breeze through the first 20 levels.

But all that aside, what would REALLY help is more low level adventures and events, made to cater to being Low Level, in order that through these storylines our Characters can find defining moment of existence, and OOC, work against the belief that only good things happen to your BGTSCC experience when your Toon is Epic (level).

Learning is not predicated on amount of danger present. In fact learning in groups can be stated and seen as being the best way to learn and thus one would gain more experience when the observations and insight of others can help shape the experience. So one could argue that in fact more people means more XP.....

Calodan, as an IC way of thinking, I agree with what you're saying above.

But XP in general, is really an OOC issue. Our Characters do not learn of a "value" to killing 1 or 5,000,000 goblins, in any concrete terms of X Dead Goblins = X Levels of Skill.

An actually, it is usually considered that our Characters are not aware of what the Character Sheet says, in terms of Values! Feats and Skills ARE learned things acquired, but they are not interpreted in values.

"Hi, I'm a fighter guy with diplomacy of 17 points! Please give me a bigger flagon of ale!"

To continue this train of thought, one may question at what point, after killing X number of goblins, would you even gain any more Experience from killing one more of them?! I'd say that is rendered as effectively as possible, by how the game is designed to lessen XP based on the CR of the Type of Monster you kill. It is clumsy, but kinda works. Epic PCs killing Goblins gain 0 XP, with the thought being that you've gone beyond experience gain, when you slay them.

As for constant group learning, I could counter and say this is really only applicable when sharing of the same skill sets, in which to improve. There is also the case that POOR insight and BAD observation could be detrimental to your experience! Have you ever had a crappy coach try to teach you how to play a game?!? lol. Kinda like that: STFU coach, and let me use my own knowledge!