Muleing / Twinking discussion

[chad878262]

potions take skill and timing and gold, and are an equalizer. unfortunately, every time i play with a noob, i give them potions, so we can go adventure at higher levels, have some real fun. EVERY time, they try to pocket the potions, either to save them for later or sell them for gold towards some uber merchant item. Then they get killed, say its too difficult, and say they are going back to the graveyard or killing lizardmen. So annoying.

Have patience with them...I believe you tried to explain the concept to me a couple years ago of why potions are so important. Unfortunately for those who are not overly experienced in PW's the concept of actually needing consumables is somewhat foreign.

[Hawke]

Muling would not be that much of an issue if the level limits on items were still enabled. And would quell a lot of the opposition on the lowbie PC being too strong.

How much of an issue is it?

Sir, it is an issue, because people are having an issue with it.

I am not saying I am pro or against muling, just that it may be less of an issue if item restrictions were still in play, but that cannot be undone.

[Planehopper]

My only comment here is that personal problems with mechanics and play styles are not necessarily server problems with mechanics and play styles. It seems to me that server problems should be the first and only to be addressed in most cases.

[RaiderOne]

Some people are talking epic gear and some people are talking anything and there is a difference. If the problem is only really epic gear then why not just make anything with the epic tag require CL21+ and leave the rest alone?

[Thorsson]

Level 1 should be a very dangerous time.

Level1 in an CR1 area, should be as dangerous as a level20 in a CR20 area.

But it isn't.

What do you propose exactly? Ban muling, restict potions/scrolls.items etc? Do you feel that most players will enjoy such changes? The poll on the item restriction ( even if it is just that) says differently.

Poll kids on whether they should have unlimited sweeties and unsurprisingly they say yes. Wiser heads may decide that restrictions need to be in place for their own good...

What I'm saying is that:

1. There should be a consistent approach (to character power levels), rather than the current hodge podge (I could also go on here about certain new overpowered feats that have been introduced); and
2. There should be a challenge at all levels for all characters.

[Incarnate]

My take on the muling problem:
First of all the act of muling is transfering items or wealth from one character to another with the intend of storing it on this character, for later retrieval - which isn't necessarily the same character that retrieves it that it originally stored it. The Mule character is an OOC concept, the very act of muling uses OOC knowledge IC'ly, which is metagaming, and the character who hands the items to the muling character does so with OOC knowledge and act IC'ly with this knowledge. The majority of these characters has nothing to do with each other IC'ly other than the fact that its there to hold the character's items or give the character items or just wealth - an OOC act. Even if its rp'ed, its only rp'ed with the intent to "legitimize" the muling act. Which basically makes the items and wealth available for use on the muling character and such doesn't necessarily have been made with the specific purpose to hold items and wealth, and as such can be considered another character or an assisting character to that players main character. This character can also pass it on to player characters, including the players own characters who just like the muling character didn't make the effort to generate that wealth or get those item ingame.

Already by now it should obvious that as such this produces serious issues like for instance:

• It affects the ingame economy in a negative way.
• A player can use it to boost his/her other characters - including new ones. Like from a level 30 to a level 1 - who has absolutely nothing to do with each other.
• By allowing Muling Metagaming it also allows to a degree.
• Potentially Epic gear in the hands of a level 1 character, in the case of old players of the server could be in possession of gear thats
• Completely ignoring that it's a character who earned the items and wealth, and not the player - this is an rp server so that actually matter to an extreme degree.

There other issues, and issues that go alot deeper with what and how they affect on a more server wide scale as consequence of players doing this, which obviously was recoqnized on other servers and dealt with. As far as I hear, Sigil has some quite powerful anti-muling scripts, which basically would flag the muling character and it player for muling behaviour, so if Sigil could fix it, so can BG:TSCC. I know this has been pointed out and suggested before.

What NegInfinity points out are some of negative things that happen that impacts on a server-wide scale as a result of muling.

• It continuously shifts "expected equipment level" up on the server, and gives major advantage to "dragon players" (who sit on pile of treasures without ever using it). It also shifts monster power level up along with it.
• Due to muling being enabled there's no incentive to participate in trade or go through equipment ladder (advancing from mundane to +3), once you've acquired good stuff.
• Majority of people will simply reuse and grandfather items.

Oh and by the way:

Muling is not NOT allowed, but neither is it encouraged. We have the ability to place things (or did? Dunno, never used it, never trusted it) on certain merchants for RCR. It's not there to push items around from one character to a completely different one.

Do I mule? Heck yes, only because it isn't against the rules to do.

Though this is a bit peculiar - Muling is not allowed but not against the rules - that statement seems to contradict it self so which is it? It certainly leads me to believe that the leadership actually has a stance on the matter but just hasn't declared the rules for it yet, which obviously is that it should be against the rules. So why haven't they made this official already?

Simply put, any iteration of muling will have a multitude of exploits that will allow players to cheat without being caught.

Its possible to fix, Sigil did it, so can BG:TSCC. Apparently its not a problem that can't be dealt with, and even if they can still get around it somehow, at least it would be a lot more difficult to accomplish the muling, but as long as NO efforts are made to deal with it the more it will reduce the overall quality of the servers state with regards to the mentioned things that are directly affected.

You know, It all depends on if the reward is worth the risk, if the punishment is severe enough to outweigh the reward then people won't do it, and those that do it, make them regret that they did once caught - that will deter people from doing it. Honestly, this requires community effort and integrity and a willingness to root it out.

[Zanniej]

Oh and by the way:

Muling is not NOT allowed, but neither is it encouraged. We have the ability to place things (or did? Dunno, never used it, never trusted it) on certain merchants for RCR. It's not there to push items around from one character to a completely different one.

Do I mule? Heck yes, only because it isn't against the rules to do.

Though this is a bit peculiar - Muling is not allowed but not against the rules - that statement seems to contradict it self so which is it? It certainly leads me to believe that the leadership actually has a stance on the matter but just hasn't declared the rules for it yet, which obviously is that it should be against the rules. So why haven't they made this official already?

Please note that that's a double negative. Muling is not NOT allowed, so not disallowed ... thus allowed.

[chad878262]

Its possible to fix, Sigil did it, so can BG:TSCC. Apparently its not a problem that can't be dealt with, and even if they can still get around it somehow, at least it would be a lot more difficult to accomplish the muling, but as long as NO efforts are made to deal with it the more it will reduce the overall quality of the servers state with regards to the mentioned things that are directly affected.

You know, It all depends on if the reward is worth the risk, if the punishment is severe enough to outweigh the reward then people won't do it, and those that do it, make them regret that they did once caught - that will deter people from doing it. Honestly, this requires community effort and integrity and a willingness to root it out.

There were ways around it on Sigil as well. The issue is that it brings up favoritism. Simply muling when DMs are not online and utilizing a triangle (or more) of players to exchange the item(s) is all it takes. It really is exceedingly difficult to do without basically setting an item to a players CD key which could get rather robust, especially with the mid range items that are good enough to be on auction.

I don't want to speak for Maecius or Endelyon, but to date the opinion has been that it has been allowed for so long and the implementation would have holes no matter what, thus it isn't really worth the effort. Especially when you consider that no one has to mule (and many don't) and there is no impact on IC interactions with others since the only way you know if someone else mules is if they tell you about it, which would be OOC.

I go back and forth, but personally don't engage in muling much, other than for some merchant RP on occasion. I used to, but it really isn't needed when starting a new character to be successful and the loot drops/gold acquisition on the server is pretty quick even at low levels. That said, it does impact low to mid level PvP results for those who mule greater or even epic gear vs. those that don't mule (or don't have similar gear to mule) so it would be more fair and conducive to an RP environment if it were disallowed. I just don't think there is a way to police it, and without that it's a lot of work for no real gain.

[Hawke]

Please note that that's a double negative. Muling is not NOT allowed, so not disallowed ... thus allowed.

Thank you for clarifying the misunderstanding with my post from 5 months ago.

Not sure why, but I think I was trying to be clever with words from another post I read in this thread.

To be honest it was not NOT that clever.

[NegInfinity]

Its possible to fix, Sigil did it, so can BG:TSCC. Apparently

There were ways around it on Sigil as well.

For muling to go away on bgtscc, the server would need crafting and in-game PC merchants.

When sigil was active there wasn't much need for muling, because you could relatively quickly locate a PC merchant that could set you up with basic stuff, or you could make some yourself.

Basically, for a caster the process was mostly finding materials and enchanting stuff yourself. Casters are less equipment dependent anyway.

For non-caster or non-crafter it was a matter of finding Cornelia, and helping her gather resources (it was a perfect "job" for a low-level player) in exchange for some spare gear.

This was beneficial for both aprties - gathering requires low level characters, while merchant doesn't really want to leave their stall.

However, both stalls and merchants are missing on bgtscc, that's why there is muling.

And one more thing:

if the reward is worth the risk, if the punishment is severe enough

If the punishment is severe, people will simply leave and play elsewhere.

Muling on bgtscc exists because there is no crafting. Unless this is solved, removing it wouldn't be the best idea.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I don't think that muling has to be prohibited. There is only one good point against it in whole six pages — it affects the in-game economy in a bad way. But what it really does is killing all the fun for its users. Maybe someone would find it interesting to play as a low-level grinding machine with grandfathered gear, but I just don't get it.

[Steve]

In all the years I've been playing on BGTSCC, I only once found an Item from random Loot that fit the Character that found it. It was a plain mithral plate, and actually, I've found 2 mith plates (but again, the second on a Toon that couldn't use it).

I think I would stop playing on BGTSCC if I felt that my Character would always be limited in appropriate gear, or Epic Gear, even after playing that character for 2+ years.

Of course, if everyone else had the same experience, I guess it would be fair and maybe I'd accept it and continue to play. But knowing that some Players do receive rewards of powerful items tailored to the Character, I would have to cry FOUL PLAY, in general.

Another reason to move on, right?

So like has been said before, would crafting be a possibility that equals what the RIG produces, it would be a skewed sandbox.

And all the hardcore ideas presented in the past would likely cause the Server to crash in population, and be left with only those Players who care nothing for gear and power.

And who wants that, right? Right?!?

[Sun Wukong]

In order to 'ban' muling on this server, you need to do the following things:

1) You need to remove persistent storage because disguise tool could be used to withdraw items from a merchant.

2) You need to remove the in game consignment store because it could be used to mule over gold at a very minor 10% tax.

3) You need to remove the possibility to perform a RCR in any capacity, because it is something that encourages muling equipment over to a 'new' character.

4) You need to remove the ability to hide your information in the in game scrying tool because otherwise people cannot take notice when player characters of the same or different login enter any specific area.

5) You need to bind all items to belong to the character that first found them in loot or purchased from an NPC. No one else should be able to use items that others have acquired one way or another. Hence, all you can do with items is to keep them for yourself or sell them to any NPC merchant - where the item could be possibly purchased by others at its full in game value. Which means that players have no reason to actually trade with each other beyond the capacity of informing others when they sell a desirable item to a merchant.

With these five little and insignificant changes you have made it next to impossible to mule. You have prevented the victimless crime of muling from taking place on this server. Not to mention that you have probably managed to drive away a large number of the players who would want to partake in such a foul and unjust act that is no more than a victimless crime.



Oh, and if you are not certain, I am agains the ban on muling.

[niapet]

Why couldn't you just ban it on the honor system?

[chad878262]

Why couldn't you just ban it on the honor system?

Because then it takes up DM time to monitor, and there end up being accusations of favoritism and cheating. In general, rules should be enforced in mechanically or be mechanically tracked in order to fairly apply them across players equally. If you cannot properly enforce it, some will 'get away' with it while others get punished.