Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Thorsson wrote:

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:It can be. We can provide eligibility at intervals based on the BIC creation datetime. Six months is too soon in my opinion; one year from creation is suitable and not bound to RCR scheduled timeframes that're static to the whole module.

I see no essential difference between 6 months and a year; both are too long for people to be doing casual RCRing.

Logically, aside from changes to the game (which is a separate issue), why is there a need to RCR? There isn't. RCR is there as a *reward* for the time spent in game. On that basis there is no justification at all for 100% RCR, with all its inherent problems. The complaint arises from the time needed to level back up to 30.

That's what needs to be fixed, because there is no logical reason for it at all - it's just a way of delaying people getting to 30.

As I point out elsewhere, all these issues tie into one another (the 100% RCR exploits tie back to 3b20) and are an inherent result of the lack of logic in many of BGTSCC's rules, whose only virtue is that they've been around for years.

Yes.

Also, normal timefrime from birth to death of one character should be among the time it takes to finish a big single player rpg. Meaning 100 hours or so. That could be a few months of sporadical playing.

The slow progression on bgtscc isn't fun and doesn't add much to the experience. What's worse if you realize that you messed up somewhere, you'll have to go through leveling torture again, just to try something new. So you're discouraged from playing, pretty much.

Okay so I've been playing bgtscc since 2013-14...3-4 years. I've had my main since pretty much the whole time. I rcr'd her 2 times from low 20's levels. Although I play a lot of alts I finally got her to level 29. Woo, right!?
Not woo.
At 29th level after 3-4 years of play, I discovered an important feat for the build is not available on this server.
I have not read the previous 6 pages and just wanted to post my nightmare of an example.
But now that Im thinking about it....
My main character is now shelved until administration decides to add the feat or not. A decision they are in no rush to make.
If I could rcr or knew I could rcr her later I would still play her. I'm too sick of grinding/questing to take the exp hit again, hence the wait.
There is about a dozen logical arguments in support of being able to rcr, especially for this game. If we could rcr in a way that instead of deleting the toon and saving exp we could reduce the toon to level 1 and save the exp...it would reduce a lot of the exploitation.
Good idea? Possible? Someone already think of it?

NegInfinity wrote:chad878262 wrote:
Agreed, but the time from 1-20 should be increased while the time from 21-30 should be decreased.

That is not a very good idea. The fun part on the server is level 1 to 10, past that point it becomes less and less fun, and after level 15 it is a chore.

So if 1-10 is the fun part why is it a bad idea to slow it down so it can be enjoyed? We have several CR 0.5 to CR2 dungeons, but by the time you do 2 of them you are level 3 and ready to move on to hilltop. Meanwhile 20+ you need to do the same few dungeons dozens of times each to level. It just makes sense based on the breakdown of CR area's that it be level set. There are FAR more area's in CR0-20 while CR21-30 is perhaps 1/4 or less of the area's. Yet it takes longer to go 21-30 than it does to go 1-20. You get to level 20 at 190,000 XP (for ECL 0 races) and then you need 245,000 XP more to get from 20-30. On top of this you are gaining roughly 1/2 the XP per kill from 21-30. Thus if XP gain per kill was equal, 21-30 would be about 56% of your time leveling 1-30 while 1-20 would be 44%. However, due to the lesser XP gain in epics, you actually spend about 75% of your time leveling 21-30. So you spend 75% of your time leveling with 25% of the area's being somewhere in your CR zone. (Gets worse from 26-30). Now, Dynamic scaling has helped this somewhat, but I would still say that is simply a bad breakdown. Not saying you should be able to get 50 XP / kill in epics, but I do think reducing XP per kill to a max of ~50 pre epic and increasing XP in epics from ~25-30 up to 35-40 would be beneficial. Pre-epic leveling would be slowed down a bit, but it would be almost unnoticeable. Perhaps taking ~10-15% longer to get to 20, but 21 to 30 would then see that 10-15% improvement. Same overall pace, but a bit more normalized instead of making it so back heavy.

I think part of the fun he was referring to was the pace of leveling as much as the content itself. So if you slow down the early levels, it will become less fun.

I realize you're advocating for more of a balance between the two, but if some people think the only levels that are fun are the lower ones, and in large part because of the smooth transition from appropriately difficult areas to leveling up to harder areas to more leveling up and so on, and part of your plan is to slow down what they see as the only good pace, well that could seem like a terrifically bad idea.

And since we CTAPS around here...

There are two parts to level advancement:

1. The overall level of progression, or how fast should we get to L30 overall; and
2. The proportionate level of progression, or how fast is 2-3 compared to 1-2 etc.

PnP is often held up as an example of best practice, but cannot help us with 1, because if we used PnP values everyone could make level 30 in a couple of days - and I've been on PWs like that - they didn't last. I expect everyone has a different idea of how long it should take and that may at least partly relate to how much time they have available to play. If you're on 12 hours every day then BGTSCC's pace may seem perfect, while if you can only play 12 hours a week it may seem dreadfully slow. There are ways to ameliorate this difference, e.g. some PWs have decreased the XP you get from killing the same monster over and over, which stops you grinding one area. Not sure why this hasn't been tried here. In any case, I raise the idea that there should be some sort of differential.

On my second point, this is where BGTSCC could follow PnP, but has chosen to do the opposite. That is to say that the standard CR-based XP table sees an increased amount of XP as you go up levels, with the idea roughly being that you level up at approximately the same rate for each level, so a CR5 encounter will yield 1500XP for a level 5 character, compared to 1200XP for a CR4 encounter for a level 4 (levels 1-3 are a special case). To my mind this is balanced and the question therefore arises as to why BGTSCC believes that it is right that each level takes an exponentially longer time to reach, because this is surely what frustrates many people and why so many cry out for RCR.

What makes this situation worse is the heinous decision to remove level caps on items, in that a twinked out level 4 will reach level 5 in the blink of an eye due to the monsters holding no threat (and yet the encounters can't be made appropriate, because then any new player would die incessantly), and yet his gear will get no better when he is at level 29, meaning it is much, much harder to earn that (currently shrunken) XP.

The balance is all wrong.

chad878262 wrote: So if 1-10 is the fun part why is it a bad idea to slow it down so it can be enjoyed?

That's backwards.

It is fun because of decent progression speed. Slowing it down will kill the fun, because progression will devolve into grind, where you run through the same dungeons again and again.

chad878262 wrote: We have several CR 0.5 to CR2 dungeons, but by the time you do 2 of them you are level 3 and ready to move on to hilltop.

The player shouldn't be required to go through ALL low-cr dungeons in order to advance. If they missed some areas, that's fine, they'll go through them next time on another character.

chad878262 wrote: Meanwhile 20+ you need to do the same few dungeons dozens of times each to level.

So is the idea to bring this "amazing" experience to low levels? I'll pass on that.

chad878262 wrote: It just makes sense based on the breakdown of CR area's that it be level set. There are FAR more area's in CR0-20 while CR21-30 is perhaps 1/4 or less of the area's. Yet it takes longer to go 21-30 than it does to go 1-20. You get to level 20 at 190,000 XP (for ECL 0 races) and then you need 245,000 XP more to get from 20-30. On top of this you are gaining roughly 1/2 the XP per kill from 21-30. Thus if XP gain per kill was equal, 21-30 would be about 56% of your time leveling 1-30 while 1-20 would be 44%. However, due to the lesser XP gain in epics, you actually spend about 75% of your time leveling 21-30. So you spend 75% of your time leveling with 25% of the area's being somewhere in your CR zone. (Gets worse from 26-30).

I think there's a problem in this line of reasoning, and the logic is faulty.

It is not about XP gain per kill. Low level and high level creature require different amount of effort/resources to kill, so equating balor or a naga to a kobold for progression purposes is not right.

Likewise there's no real problem with area distribution, because most people will not make it into the epics.

The XP progression is slow overall, yes. However, trying to tweak it so the lower levels are slower while higher are faster is a wasted effort. There's XP curve built into DND and in essence you're simply trying to undo it, and mkae progression linear. I think this is a wrong idea.

Egg Shen wrote:I think part of the fun he was referring to was the pace of leveling as much as the content itself. So if you slow down the early levels, it will become less fun.

I realize you're advocating for more of a balance between the two, but if some people think the only levels that are fun are the lower ones, and in large part because of the smooth transition from appropriately difficult areas to leveling up to harder areas to more leveling up and so on, and part of your plan is to slow down what they see as the only good pace, well that could seem like a terrifically bad idea.

And since we CTAPS around here...

Yup. That's what I meant.

NegInfinity wrote:There's XP curve built into DND and in essence you're simply trying to undo it, and mkae progression linear. I think this is a wrong idea.

Neither of these assertions is correct.

Progression in D&D is largely linear - each level requires more XP to get, but the amount of XP available also increases. This makes absolute sense in a PnP environment.

Currently there is a huge curve built into BGTSCC. The idea put forward would lessen that curve, i.e. it would get closer to linear. Not very close at all, but a little bit closer.

Basically there are two issues - the linearity issue and the overall time taken to reach level 30. I think your issue is really with the latter, even though you're mistakenly tilting at the former.

Logical thinking is required, so that the issues can be properly identified. Otherwise there can be no sensible debate.

NegInfinity wrote:That's backwards.

It is fun because of decent progression speed. Slowing it down will kill the fun, because progression will devolve into grind, where you run through the same dungeons again and again.

Nope, going through low levels with a party right now. Takes about 1 dungeon to increase a level without grinding at all (currently level 7). Requiring an extra 10-15% would not turn this in to a grind.

NegInfinity wrote:The player shouldn't be required to go through ALL low-cr dungeons in order to advance. If they missed some areas, that's fine, they'll go through them next time on another character.

They still wouldn't... As shown in Valeforts area CR ratings here: viewtopic.php?f=149&t=61255 there are 16 CR 0-5 area's... It takes roughly 6 area's going straight through with a party (lower xp per kill) walking/RP'ing the dungeons in order to reach level 5. Increasing by 10-15% would increase that to roughly 8 area's which is still only half the area's available for the CR range in order to be ready to move on. There are another 16 area's for level 5-10 which again, will take less than half of those to exceed that CR. Meanwhile there are 13 area's of CR 20-25 and 5 of CR25-30. 18 area's for 10 levels that require more XP than the first 20 combined while granting roughly half the XP per kill.

NegInfinity wrote:So is the idea to bring this "amazing" experience to low levels? I'll pass on that.

See above. The experience would not change all that much and leveling would still be very quick 1-20.

NegInfinity wrote:I think there's a problem in this line of reasoning, and the logic is faulty.

It is not about XP gain per kill. Low level and high level creature require different amount of effort/resources to kill, so equating balor or a naga to a kobold for progression purposes is not right.

Likewise there's no real problem with area distribution, because most people will not make it into the epics.

The XP progression is slow overall, yes. However, trying to tweak it so the lower levels are slower while higher are faster is a wasted effort. There's XP curve built into DND and in essence you're simply trying to undo it, and mkae progression linear. I think this is a wrong idea.

No problem, the logic is not faulty. You can disagree with it, but it is sound reasoning. It has been stated that overall we are not going to speed up leveling on this server. In order to make epics faster that time has to come from pre-epic. So if you want a somewhat faster epic leveling pace you need to accept a marginally slower pre-epic pace. However, you spread that speed reduction out over 20 levels while the increase is felt over the last 10. So you will not feel the slow down as much early on, while the speed up later will be noticeable.

chad878262 wrote: Nope, going through low levels with a party right now. Takes about 1 dungeon to increase a level without grinding at all (currently level 7). Requiring an extra 10-15% would not turn this in to a grind.

Dude, the way I see it, you're simply going on defensive with your idea here.

The point is I still don't like the proposal.

chad878262 wrote: So if you want a somewhat faster epic leveling pace you need to accept a marginally slower pre-epic pace.

And I don't see a logic in this particular idea. To me it looks like it is based on some assumption (which I find very strange) regarding total playtime and its distribution which simply looks arbitrary and random to me. The good idea would be to drop the idea and think of other ways, without getting overly attached to it.

Also, try playing a level 1 ecl wizard or rogue rp build instead, alone, without twinking and without a party. Low-level parties do not happen often so most likely scenario is that nobody will be helping a new character.

chad878262 wrote: Nope, going through low levels with a party right now. Takes about 1 dungeon to increase a level without grinding at all (currently level 7).

But this is a good thing!

It is a good dungeon design.

You have 2..3 hours to play. You log in. You clear a dungeon, and you get a level. So you get your adventure and sense of advancement somewhere. You log off and play another dungeon next week and experience something different - which you counldn't previously tackled due to character being weaker/lacking gear. It is amazing design.

You know why grinding is boring? Because it has no feeling of progression to it. you're doing the same thing again and again for a long time while seeing no result. The game turns into chore, and rather than experiencing the feeling of wonder you get from exploring that 1 level dungeon for the first time, you feel like you're doing some sort of menial work, except you're not getting paid for it.

By talking about progression speeds, you're concentrating on the wrong part of the issue and are being misled (by yourself) into a line of thinking which ends up in a dead end. That's why I suggest to drop the idea, step back and start thinking it over.

NegInfinity wrote:
You know why grinding is boring? Because it has no feeling of progression to it. you're doing the same thing again and again for a long time while seeing no result. The game turns into chore, and rather than experiencing the feeling of wonder you get from exploring that 1 level dungeon for the first time, you feel like you're doing some sort of menial work, except you're not getting paid for it.

Grinding alone is never boring for me, because i take on challenging areas. It gets boring when grouped, because the slaughter becomes mindless.

but sometimes i group up with people who like danger, and good xp boost. Those are always fun and memorable.

and levelling is easier than ever now with the scaling CR.

NeOmega wrote:...and levelling is easier than ever now with the scaling CR.

Yet another solution looking for a problem.

I think the biggest problem I have with this whole argument on how to make levelling fun is that it is almost universally coming from the viewpoint of a virgin player and a virgin character.

I think precisely zero of us are that.

We've seen it, over and over and over again. And unless you have the mental fortitude of a Golden Age WoW gold farmer, levelling is, and always will be (insert preferred expletive here) excrutiating. You either grind- whether it be the endless circle of agony that is Xvarts, or it's groups running endlessly through dungeons, it's still grinding. You quest- Don't know about you, but the 20 or so weekly quests we have? Are interesting and fun about a grand total of once. By the time I'm level 15, I'm ready to drink poison than have to do those damned things yet again. Fortunately RP finally generates a reasonable amount of XP reward- and that's the only thing that allowed me to stick it out and make it all the way to 30- which took me more than a year. Because of the agony of levelling.

I know several people who have left the server with no intents of coming back primarily because of the misery of levelling here, and it all stems from the fact that the process is nothing more than wash, rinse, repeat ad nauseum (with a healthy dose of nauseum, btw). I really don't know a way to improve upon the matter since we're a server of finite size, with finite staff on a dying game and operating entirely on volunteer time. I get that, I'm not screaming things need to be changed. I just find it kind of insulting to be told I should be enjoying a process that the vast majority of people clearly find to be the exact opposite of enjoyable.

I dunno. I guess I just can't fathom why in the hell, given all the other concessions this server has made, with the age of the game and the shriveling of the community that "Ok, yeah. Once per year, we have one week of 100% RCR. Merry Christmas, and thank you all for hanging with us this long!" But that's just me.

Thorsson wrote:

NeOmega wrote:...and levelling is easier than ever now with the scaling CR.

Yet another solution looking for a problem.

i think the idea was for more fun, not making levelling easier.

Its seems like many think reaching level 30 means "I win BGTSCC". Then when it is hard to "win bgtscc", they moan about it.

So you are level 30, now what?
"i wanna rcr to another level 30!"

why? obviously you love levelling so much that you grind for hours at a time getting 12 xp a kill. once you are 30 you cant level anymore.

I'll be frank. The reason you folks hate grinding to reach that level is because you have lost sight of what is fun to you. You imagine a bunch of things when designing your character, possibly even deluding yourself into thinking that the fact your well thought out design also happens to be a powerbuild is secondary or even tertiary. In reality, you are building a mindless grind machine, and then get dismayed when you are stuck mindlessly grinding.

Think about it this way; what are games for? They stimulate the mind. So you are stimulated when laying out you sword swinging slaughter simulator. You test it on the field. Yup, it works against equal cr. works against +6 CR. If it is easy.... ...you aren't having fun. So push yourself until death becomes a real possibility. Then you are challenged, like you were when you first started.

I mean, try rcring down to 20, and then go fight where you were getting 12 xp a kill. Now you have non ILR items from your level 30. Yeah, you are going to die... ...and lose 2000 xp, but you'll be getting 50 or 60 xp a kill... ...and you'll be having fun again... ...and at the end, nour for hour, you'll still be progressing at about the same rate you were grinding 12 xp a kill. But at least you'll be getting close calls, quick reactions, emergency usables. Your mind is stimulated. you are thinking about survival, not how many more do you gotta kill to level. you are back in the fantasy world, where death is a possibility, and not in the spreadsheet world where you are calculating how long and how many kills until you level.


and if you want to tell me you enjoy the game differently, that progression and "development" of your character is what you enjoy... ...cool, grind away. But dont blame the server because it is such a chore, and unfun.... ....because i dont have the whole "unfun" issue, yet I am playing the same server... ...so its not the server's XP system thats the issue.

i could enjoy it if XP were doubled, or halved. I couldnt enjoy it if there was a +20 flaming sword of vorpal death for 100 gold.