Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Dragonslayer wrote: spits in the face of dedicated roleplayers.

BS. Nobody is affected by what you do with your own character, mechanically. And dedicated roleplayers tend to not care as long as their immersion isn't broken.

Valefort, the grinding here is 1) boring, 2) a chore, and 3) unrewarding compared to the time spent doing so. As someone else mentions, the levelling to around 9-10 is the most fun part of levelling. After that the fun-factor goes down. You can spice it up with roleplaying, but at some point the chore of grinding will get to you. Unless you're one of those people who can shut their brain off and mindlessly grind. I used to be one back in the vanilla WoW days, but as I got older I found it a waste of time if it's no fun... even if I want to get to this and this level to unlock this and this ability.

Xanfyrst wrote:

Dragonslayer wrote: spits in the face of dedicated roleplayers.

BS. Nobody is affected by what you do with your own character, mechanically. And dedicated roleplayers tend to not care as long as their immersion isn't broken.

Valefort, the grinding here is 1) boring, 2) a chore, and 3) unrewarding compared to the time spent doing so. As someone else mentions, the levelling to around 9-10 is the most fun part of levelling. After that the fun-factor goes down. You can spice it up with roleplaying, but at some point the chore of grinding will get to you. Unless you're one of those people who can shut their brain off and mindlessly grind. I used to be one back in the vanilla WoW days, but as I got older I found it a waste of time if it's no fun... even if I want to get to this and this level to unlock this and this ability.

+1

Xanfyrst wrote:And dedicated roleplayers tend to not care as long as their immersion isn't broken.

Right. Which is why I said:

Dragonslayer wrote:And it breaks immersion to have these things happen with regularity, because we're all in the same sandbox; I can't simply 'not play' with others while maintaining a roleplaying mentality.

Chasing people (who want to RP) away from the server is not a good idea either. You're simply substituting one group for another.

Someone providing "more characters to interact with - for YOU," is a mischaracterization. They're providing a new character for themselves, at the expense of other characters who have spent the time and energy to build relationships and alliances/enemies.

For example, dropping in a level 30 RCR sorcerer/archmage who opposes your character's guild or faction who can mechanically imbalance not only PvP, but RP negotiations/discussions through her level 30 skillset, suddenly becomes a powerful effect on these alliances and relationships. It breaks immersion.

Also, "+1" doesn't particularly add anything to the discussion.

I hear you Xanfryst, but for me it's enjoyable and I don't want a quicker leveling either, I don't feel particularly insane btw

Anyway those are simply our respective personal opinions, in the end using the RCR system to bypass monster slaying is a bizarre answer to the perceived bore that is grinding, for some people. If it's not fun it should be changed instead of being sidestepped !

If you made a mistake during your leveling you can ask a DM to dock your exp (come to think of it I could even add an NPC in the Nexus to substract exp), if your character changed noticeably then you should ask for a rebuild to be able to reflect the changes that happened, if it's neither then start a new character.

How about at least removing the level 20 cap?

There's nothing of value in terms of content that you "skip" by going to 23 over 20. However, going to 23 immediately allows builds that rely on Combat Insight to have something resembling relevance.

Xanfyrst wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:
Also, this argument that "I have only so much time" is only valid if you play this game purely for mechanics, in which case - what are you doing here? Roleplay starts at level 1. Not at 10. Not when you get HiPS. Not when you get dragon form. Not when you have the power to do stupid evil/good things and have a "chance" in PvP. At level 1.

While that is true... it's also not entirely true. Some character concepts only work with levels that supports that concept.

But how did that character end up with those talents? Why not RP the way to those skills that your character concept "needs"? The character wasn't born with the extra levels, after all.

NegInfinity wrote: This is an extremely poor argument.

Chasing people (who don't wanna grind) away from server is not a good idea.
Someone who utilizes 100% rcr will be simply providing more characters to interact with - for YOU. The alternative for them is to quit. Which is less characters for you to interact with. Yay?

I don't want to grind! I'm not chasing myself away, what are you talking about? This whole argument appears based on the supposition that you somehow need levels to RP. That you somehow have to grind on this server, when characters such as Teris and Julindra are prime examples of that being demonstrably false.

NegInfinity wrote:100% RCR period usually result in spikes in server population, because people who despise the grind come back to try that other concept they had in mind for months or years. Why would anyone object from it, is beyond me. If Roleplay starts at level 1, why do you care at what level someone else starts? If they have a character to sacrifice, they've walked the road before and their xp is earned. Roleplay with them.

I don't actually care what level someone else starts at. I care that someone radically changes the build of an established character. Say going from a 30 wisdom / 8 charisma druid to a 30 charisma / 8 wisdom sorcerer. But keeping the person, the memories and the RP weight all that carries. It has happened. Several times. It keeps happeing. The 50% RCR is at the very least a deterrent for such behaviour - and it provides at least a little explanation of the retraining.

NegInfinity wrote:Also, it is not like "RP" is abundant. My usual play session is 2..3 hours of roaming without bumping into ANYONE. I don't know how the hell am I doing that, but apparently I have a knack for never meeting anybody at any population. So, arguments like yours aren't addressing that.

No, indeed. This is a problem I have as well, but 100% RCR is not going to change how easy it is to meet people. It has nothing to do with it, in fact. If you want to meet people in game, you need to encourage people to use some kind of hub where you want to reliably find people to RP with. It worked excellently when Lyrewyn did this for Baldur's Gate, just as an example.

Hoihe wrote:How about at least removing the level 20 cap?

There's nothing of value in terms of content that you "skip" by going to 23 over 20. However, going to 23 immediately allows builds that rely on Combat Insight to have something resembling relevance.

yea. i think we should make exploitation possible and totally go against the policies and intentions of the process so your build can be at its best?

I don't see any issue with allowing a full RcR every 6 months or so. By that point there will have been several Server Updates that include changes/additions in feats/abilities/spells/etc enough that the initial concept behind a PC or its viability on the server could be messed up or improved. I am not against putting in limitations that if the changes are radical then it needs to be a new PC. But, a change to a spell or change in weapon focus on a WM, to me isn't a big deal.

For those who say that RP starts at level 1 or that no one needs to start off with xyz feat to be able to RP, what about those who want to play a character who is already skilled/studied/healthy/diplomatic/whatever? Why can't I play a PC who just arrived in the area of BG who is a master (Epic level 30) swordsman, or a wizard who has mastered the highest level spells, or the cleric who can Mass Heal (Epic version)? If I have an alt level 30 PC (Which I don't, so none of this actually applies to me) who is collecting dust, why not be able to turn that in to an epic wizard crafter who spent his life, before arriving, mastering wand craft and just now decided that Baldur's Gate would be a great market to move in to? The player may end up playing on the server more, rather than move on, as they have a new story to tell. Level 30 doesn't have to mean the end of the PCs story, it could be the true beginning.

My issue with RcRing from level 30 down to level 20 (With the max XP that is held by the RcR bot), is that you have now fixed an issue with the build, or took a feat that better represents the RP happening to the PC, or new spells were added during server updates that the caster could select, they are now significantly reduced from what they were. As an example, I RcR'd my toon who, before the RcR, was able to cast resurrection. He was approached by another PC who was dragging their dead friend with them. My PC was asked to raise the dead PC, which he did. Did the RcR and lost 10 Character levels, which included the ability to cast Resurrection. Two weeks later the same PC came along with another dead friend in tow and pleaded for help from my PC to resurrect the dead friend (Because he knew that my PC had the capability). Awkward moment time. Now my toon has to come up with some lame excuse for a mechanical limitation with the RcR bot "Uhhhhh...Yeeeeeah about that....See...uh...My god decided that I shouldn't be resurrecting the dead for awhile...You know how that goes, right? That is until I can muster the desire to go back out and grind a bunch of monsters (Again) and get back the "knowledge" of how to resurrect again, based on my ability to murder various creatures." That exact conversation didn't happen, but it might as well have.

Deathgrowl wrote: I don't want to grind! I'm not chasing myself away, what are you talking about? This whole argument appears based on the supposition that you somehow need levels to RP. That you somehow have to grind on this server, when characters such as Teris and Julindra are prime examples of that being demonstrably false.

Uh... while you don't need levels to RP, you need levels to reach areas with people to RP with. Otherwise you'll be roleplaying with npc chickens most of the time. Likewise your level restricts what your character can be and what it can do, mechanically. In some cases it impacts characters as well.

It is part of DM mechanics, and it isn't really possible to deny it.

Teris, by the way is epic level character.

Deathgrowl wrote: I don't actually care what level someone else starts at. I care that someone radically changes the build of an established character.

Then there's no problem. Ther reason why I wanted to have full RCR is to make new concepts. Not to refine existing ones.

Feel free to impose whatever penalties you want at "recreate the same character". I don't care about this use.

Deathgrowl wrote: No, indeed. This is a problem I have as well, but 100% RCR is not going to change how easy it is to meet people.

It'll increase number of people who will make character (see the "epic level collecting dust" comment earlier), will increase population, and will increase chance of bumping into someone.

It is true that it won't fix the situation. But it will improvie it.

sweetlikesplenda wrote:I don't see any issue with allowing a full RcR every 6 months or so. By that point there will have been several Server Updates that include changes/additions in feats/abilities/spells/etc enough that the initial concept behind a PC or its viability on the server could be messed up or improved. I am not against putting in limitations that if the changes are radical then it needs to be a new PC. But, a change to a spell or change in weapon focus on a WM, to me isn't a big deal.

a weapon master changing focus? i think that would be a large undertaking to learn the intricacies of your new weapon. perhaps some is cross-over knowledge (3 levels) but the true mastery of the weapon would take more time. investment of practice and knowledge. not a great example to do away with RcR tax.

+1 in favor of keeping as is

sweetlikesplenda wrote:For those who say that RP starts at level 1 or that no one needs to start off with xyz feat to be able to RP, what about those who want to play a character who is already skilled/studied/healthy/diplomatic/whatever? Why can't I play a PC who just arrived in the area of BG who is a master (Epic level 30) swordsman, or a wizard who has mastered the highest level spells, or the cleric who can Mass Heal (Epic version)? If I have an alt level 30 PC (Which I don't, so none of this actually applies to me) who is collecting dust, why not be able to turn that in to an epic wizard crafter who spent his life, before arriving, mastering wand craft and just now decided that Baldur's Gate would be a great market to move in to? The player may end up playing on the server more, rather than move on, as they have a new story to tell. Level 30 doesn't have to mean the end of the PCs story, it could be the true beginning.

coming to the area as a master? well level 20 is a master of sorts. that character has achieved almost everything he will and that coming to a new land will have it's own learning curve to fall into.

good point but not enough.

sweetlikesplenda wrote:My issue with RcRing from level 30 down to level 20 (With the max XP that is held by the RcR bot), is that you have now fixed an issue with the build, or took a feat that better represents the RP happening to the PC, or new spells were added during server updates that the caster could select, they are now significantly reduced from what they were. As an example, I RcR'd my toon who, before the RcR, was able to cast resurrection. He was approached by another PC who was dragging their dead friend with them. My PC was asked to raise the dead PC, which he did. Did the RcR and lost 10 Character levels, which included the ability to cast Resurrection. Two weeks later the same PC came along with another dead friend in tow and pleaded for help from my PC to resurrect the dead friend (Because he knew that my PC had the capability). Awkward moment time. Now my toon has to come up with some lame excuse for a mechanical limitation with the RcR bot "Uhhhhh...Yeeeeeah about that....See...uh...My god decided that I shouldn't be resurrecting the dead for awhile...You know how that goes, right? That is until I can muster the desire to go back out and grind a bunch of monsters (Again) and get back the "knowledge" of how to resurrect again, based on my ability to murder various creatures." That exact conversation didn't happen, but it might as well have.

IMO this is a RP issue that you should figure out. RP is filled with challenges and this is an opportunity to tell your story. not a wall that cannot be passed. this gives you an opportunity to explain why you have lost a few levels and fill your story out more fully.

Xanfyrst wrote: Valefort, the grinding here is 1) boring, 2) a chore, and 3) unrewarding compared to the time spent doing so. As someone else mentions, the levelling to around 9-10 is the most fun part of levelling. After that the fun-factor goes down. You can spice it up with roleplaying, but at some point the chore of grinding will get to you. Unless you're one of those people who can shut their brain off and mindlessly grind. I used to be one back in the vanilla WoW days, but as I got older I found it a waste of time if it's no fun... even if I want to get to this and this level to unlock this and this ability.

I personally agree with this. I've always hated grinding and would often find ways to do as much as I can with the most minimal effort. Such tactics used to consist of -
1) Control Vampire on 2nd floor of haunted house, buff it, go back to first floor and have it fight helmed horrors while I hips'd in the corner. It had 5 regen so it would last forever. Meanwhile, I'm watching movies on my second monitor so I'm not AFK grinding.

It was fixed, as you can no longer cross screens with dominated monsters and a Nishruu spawns on the first floor which can drain all buffs.

2) Trains - The old mountain path to the white wyrm spawned just melee frost giants and winter wolves and was a lot easier to get to. You'd gather them all up at once and blast 'em with a max greater fireburst. They took an extra 50% fire damage so it's mostly killing them all at once. Usually you can gather and train about 15-20 mobs on you at once and this was back when getting xp in the epics wasn't terrible, you were getting 30-40 xp per kill up to level 30. You do a run up, wait 3 minutes for respawn, run down, wait a few more minutes, run up and boom, you can rest.

Of course, it was fixed by moving the Frost giants into their own keep and they have their own spellcasters making it a lot harder and the XP is no where near as good.

Now the good part is there's still a place you can run a mob train and blast them all with AoE's still and that's the Ruins of Oghrann. If you're a UD player, you can also do the Duergar mines and the Illithid Mines. For lower level surfacers, I recommend the Goblin mines for best results. Xvarts are also good for this.

Best Classes and spells to use for trains -

Wizard/Sorcerer:
Wall of Fire - Cast wall of fire on ground, make yourself immune to fire, run through fire, turn around, run back through fire with train chasing you the whole time.
Firebrand - With a party? This spell will hit only enemies in the large radius.
Greater Fireburst - Not in a party? More damage in a large radius directly around you, but can hit allies.

There's so many late game AoE's, you can pick and choose based on what you're fighting.

Druid:
Wall of Fire - Same as Wizard above
Storm of Vengeance - BREAD AND BUTTER! Assuming you've got Owl's Insight up, your DCs will be pretty good and a failed save will stun them. Just stand in it and watch them drop.

Cleric:
Hammer of the Gods - Great for those goblins.
Blade Barrier - Target location on ground, run in circles around the blades. Mob train will run through it and take some hefty damage.
Storm of Vengeance - Same as Druid above.

Warlock:
Chilling Tentacles - Like Evards, so it can stun and does 2d6 cold in addition. Throw down multiple tentacles for added fun.
Wall of Perilous Flame - Only lasts 3 rounds, not as good as chilling tentacles.

EVERYTHING ELSE: Get Rekt.

IN CONCLUSION:

Grinding is still boring, I hate doing it. You are better off doing as little amount of work as possible for the best results otherwise you will lose your sanity.

NegInfinity wrote:Uh... while you don't need levels to RP, you need levels to reach areas with people to RP with. Otherwise you'll be roleplaying with npc chickens most of the time. Likewise your level restricts what your character can be and what it can do, mechanically. In some cases it impacts characters as well.

It is part of DM mechanics, and it isn't really possible to deny it.

i didn't know the FAI was a CR30 area.. i havent been there in a while so i guess i should check this out.

aaron22 wrote:

sweetlikesplenda wrote:I don't see any issue with allowing a full RcR every 6 months or so. By that point there will have been several Server Updates that include changes/additions in feats/abilities/spells/etc enough that the initial concept behind a PC or its viability on the server could be messed up or improved. I am not against putting in limitations that if the changes are radical then it needs to be a new PC. But, a change to a spell or change in weapon focus on a WM, to me isn't a big deal.

a weapon master changing focus? i think that would be a large undertaking to learn the intricacies of your new weapon. perhaps some is cross-over knowledge (3 levels) but the true mastery of the weapon would take more time. investment of practice and knowledge. not a great example to do away with RcR tax.

+1 in favor of keeping as is

This is just nit-picking for the sake of trying to keep your point, not that my point is invalid or incorrect. The minor reasons a PC might change a feat are beyond my patience to count out, they are so numerous. But, really, to keep the example used. Who says I can't have a WM who I spend months and months RPing IG that he spends time at the archery range shooting a million times at a target. Due to this he isn't doing his daily regimen that justified him having Greater Fort feat. Now, I want to drop the Fort feat and take Weapon Focus Longbow in it's place. Makes sense to me. You might disagree with that example as well. But, that doesn't take away from my point of a minor edit to a build, due to RP, that changes a character and should reflect on their sheet, shouldn't have to be knocked down to level 20.

sweetlikesplenda wrote:For those who say that RP starts at level 1 or that no one needs to start off with xyz feat to be able to RP, what about those who want to play a character who is already skilled/studied/healthy/diplomatic/whatever? Why can't I play a PC who just arrived in the area of BG who is a master (Epic level 30) swordsman, or a wizard who has mastered the highest level spells, or the cleric who can Mass Heal (Epic version)? If I have an alt level 30 PC (Which I don't, so none of this actually applies to me) who is collecting dust, why not be able to turn that in to an epic wizard crafter who spent his life, before arriving, mastering wand craft and just now decided that Baldur's Gate would be a great market to move in to? The player may end up playing on the server more, rather than move on, as they have a new story to tell. Level 30 doesn't have to mean the end of the PCs story, it could be the true beginning.

coming to the area as a master? well level 20 is a master of sorts. that character has achieved almost everything he will and that coming to a new land will have it's own learning curve to fall into.

good point but not enough.

You consider a master to be level 20. But, we -can- master things to higher spell levels, that are not allowed at level 20, or epic feats not available at level 20. So, you may consider that a PC arriving in BG could only have certain abilities. But, I disagree. If you can master higher level feats of strength or spell casting, why do you -have- to achieve that IG on the server and not off screen before you arrive?

sweetlikesplenda wrote:My issue with RcRing from level 30 down to level 20 (With the max XP that is held by the RcR bot), is that you have now fixed an issue with the build, or took a feat that better represents the RP happening to the PC, or new spells were added during server updates that the caster could select, they are now significantly reduced from what they were. As an example, I RcR'd my toon who, before the RcR, was able to cast resurrection. He was approached by another PC who was dragging their dead friend with them. My PC was asked to raise the dead PC, which he did. Did the RcR and lost 10 Character levels, which included the ability to cast Resurrection. Two weeks later the same PC came along with another dead friend in tow and pleaded for help from my PC to resurrect the dead friend (Because he knew that my PC had the capability). Awkward moment time. Now my toon has to come up with some lame excuse for a mechanical limitation with the RcR bot "Uhhhhh...Yeeeeeah about that....See...uh...My god decided that I shouldn't be resurrecting the dead for awhile...You know how that goes, right? That is until I can muster the desire to go back out and grind a bunch of monsters (Again) and get back the "knowledge" of how to resurrect again, based on my ability to murder various creatures." That exact conversation didn't happen, but it might as well have.

IMO this is a RP issue that you should figure out. RP is filled with challenges and this is an opportunity to tell your story. not a wall that cannot be passed. this gives you an opportunity to explain why you have lost a few levels and fill your story out more fully.

If there is no IC and RP reason for it, due to the fact is is a penalty given by a OOC bot in the OOC Nexus so that I could fix whatever issue I needed to even use the RcR bot for (It was like 3 years ago, so forgetting why I had the need to RcR), then the requirement for me to come up with some IG reason why my guy suddenly cannot cast a spell that he could easily cast multiply times only a week or two earlier should not be some "test of my RP skills" and if I don't have a good reason, then I am a "weak RPer". Sorry if I misunderstood, but your remark struck me as condescending.

NegInfinity wrote: Teris, by the way is epic level character.

Yes! And how much grinding has he done, do you think? That was my point here.

Deathgrowl wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: Teris, by the way is epic level character.

Yes! And how much grinding has he done, do you think? That was my point here.

Teris genocided the Sky Sharks and Dino Mice populations. He's a monster.