Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I would prefer IG barriers like harder teleport myself.

More duergars and drow on surface aren't necessarily bad. Majority of them would be evil aligned and conflict with surface factions would create opportunities for good aligned people to get involved too. I was not proposing access to settlements. Put penalties behind light sensitivity that they will stick to night and saying drow come at night would have a meaning.

My suggestion also does not remove the rule of not lingering above / below and would be on dms judgment if reason for staying longer is justified.

And that I play eilistraeen has no meaning in my stance. Yes I am able to build in current UD despite companions telling its not possible or it does not fit lore (and I do plan it).

But what are we supposed to do later. We will soon be able to walk trough last areas locked behind cr 25+ and then what. Idle with people chat for hours and when needing coins going one thousand times first into same ruins to collect chests? I like both parts of game, role playing and adventuring.

On nwn1 I played 7 years llothites and those were above like 10 times in total. But I had so many dungeons at my disposal it took me several years to actually visit all epic places.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:39 pmWhy do you get to decide whether our character is or is not just another human guard or drow bandit? We enabled the commoner class on the server, after all.

I didn't say anything diverging from the norm necessarily being lesser RP. I have an Eilistraeen moon elf that I've played for years (though extremely few know that she is Eilistraeen ICly - and also I haven't actually played her actively for a bit). So I'm personally not opposed to normbreaking characters. But I recognise that the norm will be - as it suggests - the norm.

My point is our characters are much more deeply written than npcs in a sense that npcs usually represent archetypes rather than personalities (with known npcs like some Ulraunt being exceptions who can be considered characters too in fact) and follow norms, while playable characters tend to be exceptions from these norms. I don't argue it's normal to rp blind hostility depending on the character, what I say is nobody has right to call my rp less lore-consistent or less meaningful if I don't feel like doing it or changed my character's opinion about drow over the course of rp. And yeah, many times we see someone tolerant or friendly to lorewise hostile races we don't see the rp these characters had in the past that led to it in addition.

Ravial wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:05 pmYou see, on this server? The mentality that you describe - dramas arising and such - is present literally across all spectrums. It's not something that that's only happening to when evil wins vs good. When good characters win vs evil characters? There's been a -ton- of drama as well, due to various reasons without getting into details. It's not one-sided at all. That includes PVP, hostility between species and organisations.

Well, I can't really argue about it because I'm not part of the staff (and never been), so I don't have access to any statistics or reports players are sending, so I'll believe you! Just in my experience bad guys tend to be much better with rolling with the punches in general.

Steve wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:06 am People just want more Planescape and less Forgotten Realms, for BGTSCC.

As if it's something bad

Balthomer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:52 pm1. Ah yeah, "solving" the situation by bending RP , would you react the dame way to a gray orc npc than a gray orc player? Or even better, knowing the player behind a drow because lets be honest, many people disposition ICly is influenced OOCly, as many people would react differently to a drow played by their friend than a random drow they found. Tolerance is treason as others said, you dont have to pvp all the time but you have to stay true to your character RP.

2. Speak for yourself, I seen drama for all reason, even when pvping and kidnapping consenting parties, someone always makes drama out of anything.

3. This is not to support random pvp, but to act according to the setting. Seriously , drow are not WoW dark elves.

The difference is the said gray orc PC will try to talk to me instead of just attacking. (if it attacks, it gets attacked back or I'll escape, simple as this!) The difference between blank npcs and characters with personality is actually more noticeable among (semi)monstrous races. No, I had the opposite situations. For example, when everyone by farmlands campfire was casually chatting with an unmasked tanarukk, and when I emoted hostility they just gave my character a look and tanarukk laughed and said "mind your business". When I oocly politely told that it's putting me in an awkward position where I can't do anything to the tanarukk because it would be godmodding the guards — the guards who can't do anything too because no DMs are online — the tanarukk's player told me I'm toxic and he'll never be interracting with me again. That situation wasn't normal too, but I'm not suggesting one verge or another, I'm up for compromises and golden middle. I'm not against tension rp or emoted hostility, I'm here against pvp on sight.

And yeah, drama is everywhere, but it gets server wide only if team evil wins en masse. If team good dominates it remains a more local thing.

Wildsheep wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:45 pm It makes sense for certain characters to draw their weapons as soon as they spot a drow or an orc.
On the other hand, I think the server would benefit from more UD/Surface rp with for example Bregan D'aerthe for evil mercenary/intrigue rp. Sadly, that kind of rp is quite hard to do on this server with the ooc rules and IC laws. Every single time I stumbled into someone on my drow they were more concerned about breaking the laws than the fact that they were face to face with a drow that might be about to stab them.

^
I'm not sure being OOCly worried about your character possibly becoming an exile after spotted with drow is the kind of experience DMs wanted us to have, but there we have it. Not that I know a sure solution to it, but the problem exists.

JIŘÍ wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:25 am Two months ago I came for a fresh and new experience. I even bought game for my close friend to cut short his excuses.

I set up donating of humble 5 dollars monthly to support server.

Then I join and first thing u hear I am cut off from 70% of game content.

That really made my eyebrow to be raised. But what I am used to live with little (my friend was and is much more agitated by it).

So when I went over I can't access most dungeons and spawns and truly adventure I in addition am punished even further by server rules.

By having server rules to encourage people to provide zero Interactikn and role play to me via kill on sight server rules. And with IG laws of cities encouraging ooc threats like telling above who meets my character to cause them troubles for providing me fun.

It makes impression like am treated as second rate player only cause I play a drow and that I am not generally welcome here.

I am not saying this is reality or that I have such experie ce myself (but I am once a week told by others they had such). I am saying what feelings and impression the server setting triggers.

And most hilarious are these pictures on loading speaking of epic adventure and then my drow on her level is sentenced to travel 2-3 areas over and over. These screens really made one playing in UD to laugh.

JIŘÍ wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:58 am Sshamat is lacking content to support conflict role play. And with current setting conflict role play within UD is only possible main source of spin. It could have been awesome place if worked onto.

And that it has enough size is a joke from your side. It has enough if you could have full access to surface locations but with how it is set up it is very little for stand alone module.


But if you believe it is enough it is your opinion and I am not going to persuade you. I came to play drow not a surface character if I wanted to play a surface character I would pick a new nwn ee server because ee brought many new possible routes for development and more people buy it over nwn2.

If I was doing decision aware I would spend two months beating same single npc in same location (while on loading screens phrases of epic adventure lol) I wouldnt join at all most likely

I'm sorry to hear it! But few things to note. Firstly, you're not cut off from 70% of the content. You can visit those places (most of them) on your drow, it just would be different kind of an experience. Secondly, Sshamath provides much more RP flexibility and opportunities than any other possible Underdark city (maybe except Skullport?) just as Max said. It doesn't lack any opportunities, the problem here lies in UD unstable population. Some seasons UD is incredibly active, others it's literally empty, while surface always has some population. It usually takes one dedicated clique starting some interesting RP to slowly restore UD activity, like it was with l'Orb Glennen for example or Darkwoods Syndicate. We already had precedents of new players shaking the server up and involving many characters into their rp, so you can do it too with enough passion and patience.

p.s. Also, while I've been writing it the thread got the whole page of new responses -_-

I'd like to bring this up again, arguing and ranting will only make things worse.

DM Ghost wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:53 am I want to remind you all of what zanniej posted earlier. You're not helping any cause by making personal attacks in public on the forums.

Per lore, Eilistraee faithful are supposed to be surface drow. Are their number supposed to be small? Yes. But so is the number of Aasimar and tieflings and almost 1/3 of the server is tieflings at the moment

Eilistraee's priestesses normally came below ground only to woo new converts and lead them' to the surface—something that was normally done in secret.

Temples of the Dark Maiden were typically established in the mouths of caverns or in woodlands, places that allowed her followers to reach the surface world and act there. Temples in the Underdark—even shrines close to the surface—were unusual and the Promenade of the Dark Maiden was unique in being a large center of worship, and the main one, built underground; in the caverns of Undermountain, it was built to prevent the return of one of Ghaunadaur's avatars to Toril.

- Demihuman Deities. (Wizards of the Coast),

As it stands, it's very hard to play a lore accurate Eilistraee priestess since her clergy is told to tell other drow that:

"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.

Obviously, this cannot be done on this server since drow are not allowed to step out from the UD to go live on the surface.

Regardless, I tried to handwave that and continued working towards influencing the communities of the surface, do good from the shadows without actually interacting with people ourselves and start a community of goodly Eilistraeeans somewhere hidden in the woods.

But we've ran into a few issues:

As it stands there aren't many woodsy areas where a group of Eilistraee worshipers can hold a gathering/rituals on the server. There are Silver Rose knights in the open glade in the Misty Forest which makes it impossible to do any kind of gathering there. The Cloakwoods is filled with mobs, the Reachings woods is also extremely hostile with epic level gnolls, it would be nice to have some portion of those woods de-grinded.
We held a small gathering on the Sharpwoods teeth and afterwards received a not so friendly letter from a Doron Amar councilor because apparently they had someone spying on us, as such we have been avoiding the area to not anger an elven settlement.


Comparing that to orcs who have a village on the Northern Tradeway and can both start on the UD or on the Surface. They have their own starting area behind their village in the comet area and caves connected to that area with more mobs that then lead straight up to the Bear cave near Soubar. (They also are an evil, war-like race focused on conquest.)

At the present moment, the type of rp that I envisioned for my Eilistraee priestess (outcast drow living in a hidden community in the woods, dancing under the moonlight, doing good while remaining hidden/unnoticed) is severely gimped by the ooc rules of the server and isn't supported at all, which I think is a shame.

My priestess has no good IC reason to be in Sshamath and I can't properly rp a character that follows a Goddess that preaches "Converting drow away from their wicked ways and telling them to return to the Night above". This for the most part has thrown me off playing her for the most part for now.

Thus the argument still is: the Underdark currently doesn't offer the Drow Player enough satisfaction in terms of literal Areas to explore and Events to participate in (Player or DM generated), so then the Surface should be "opened up" much more than current Server Rules AND Mechanics allow, in order to provide a solution to the lack of player satisfaction.

That's about it, right?

Well, though I can't speak for the Admins who run the Server, it is common knowledge that Devs (also Players!) have to make those Areas, submit for review, before more can come online. That entails having enough Server space for it, which would therefore require MORE ACTUAL NEED, which translates into active PCs in the UD making fun things happen that lure DMs there to support said fun actions.

Alternatively, a more "open Surface" with regard to Rules & Mechanics could happen, but by no means would that change the RP, IC aspect of TOLERANCE IS TREASON, and could very well cause much animosity within the Playerbase with more Drow topside, and thus more Drow gettting hunted and killed at every chance possible (which whether you like it or not, would be the norm, if not by PCs then even expect NPCs to get invoked...hence the History behind TOLERANCE IS TREASON, imho).

So, what I think would be a good solution, and not anything new but probably not spoken about in some time—though definitely has been before in threads like this—is to request from Area Builder/Devs to make more Upperdark Areas, and let both sides use them without restriction (except PvP Rules, maybe).

As a Player, then, you'd be knowing exactly what you'd be getting your PC into if you venture their, and thus the outcome becomes the Players responsibility, and we can all be grown ups about that, right?!?

Which part of this:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Vhaeraun

and this:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee

is so hard to understand?

Oh, that one is easy. Forgotten Realms wiki mixes and mashes all editions into a massive bundle of nonsense. A lot of what is written there is specifically 4th and 5th edition stuff.

Just in general, Forgotten Realms wiki is an extremely unreliable source. Fine, use it to look up quick things, but always check the sources for details. And don't forget that the short quotes that may support one view or another, often can end up ignoring the overarching context. I think this is something we can all end up being quite guilty of when trying to support our own preferred views.

Confirmation bias, I think the term is.

I mean, in 1367, as per the Book "Elves of Evermeet" 2nd edition, there is an eilistreean priestess living in secret at Evermeet, working towards a way how they can include eilistreean drow in their community.

Mind you her presence is kept secret from the common elves, as only the most compassionate and kind hearted elves would truly accept a drow as a friend, but this is what, 13 years away?

You arent going to tell me that elven society will change a lot in 13 years ( especially a race that lives this long) , so yeah it would be common for riff raff elves to hate all drow, eilistreean or not, but only a few ones with a kind heart would accept them.

Yeah the majority will still hate and hunt them, but the fact is that having eilistreeans around doesnt goes against the setting as much as some would like, though I agree server history and server lore should thrump the lore from books (DM has the final word).

I would prefer if issues not based on lore were somehow adressed like that both parties are taken away random encounters in their homeland that could spin off interesting role play.

When you travel across UD the only danger are literally npcs. There is no wanderer or adventurer under this setting. No thrill, no danger, no interaction with outsiders. It makes game poorer for both sides.

That lore is focused on surface with these gods, well, this is the thing and i understand the fear that everyone would make drow to get fancy SR and play on surface, and this fear has a logic. Still there is a middle ground where good aligned cities would not actively hunt proven eilsitraeens and evil aligned factions would seek vhaerunites, while both should be reachable it should be done by personal deeds of each drow. It should not mean that PCs are to accept them or that They should have access to the places, no. Each encounter should be individual between PCs, you failed to persuade them not to fight you, its your problém, run or defend yourself (and face consequences when his friends call you murderer and noone trusts you). This will make it hard unless you dedicate yourself to it fully overcoming challenges. Elves would drive you from within village, evil factions hunt you (slavers etc), and some random PCs could be extremely hostile. But i think this is achieveble even now.

However one thing which i have to point out is that. Thousends of Eilistraeens live in communities across UD. In small, big ones, hiding or semi hiding, even taking part in politic (be it openly or hidden). They do rites in UD. It is false claim that rites cannot be do there.

I found several mentions in bigger cities. And i bet there would be hundreds smaller hidden villages, outposts, or enclaves within svirf/dwarven towns in UD as well.

Buiyrandyn (pronounced: /ˈbwɪərrɑːndɪn/ BWEER-ran-din[1]) was a tiny drow settlement in the northern Underdark, beneath the northern Sword Mountains. It was also famous for rejecting Lolth and other evil drow deities. Besides that it was the birhtplace of Qilué Veladorn, one of the Seven Sisters. A long time before the 15th century DR, mindflayers destroyed it and since then it was occupied by evil monsters.[1]

Here we got entire non evil city in UD, voila. It got destroyed at a point, but check the list of drow cities, many of them were destroyed at some point or other regardless of faith.

In centuries past, the drow of Llurth Dreier somehow offended their goddess Lolth, and she withdrew her support from them. The city fell into strife, with House feuds out of control, and the drow turned to other gods of the Dark Seldarine. The faiths of Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, and Vhaeraun tried to fill the demand for divine help, but they couldn't compete with Ghaunadaur's cult.[1]

Here we have a struggle for dominance over city (Yes, Eilistraee lost).

Or the mentioned events of Myarimidma, where elven armies left behind entire drow community to serve as guard and who lived there until being defeated and overrun.

Usst Natha has Eilistraee listed as third faith in the city, after Lloth and Ghaunaudar.


There is huge difference between concept of single character and whole deity or whole race. You cannot make such generasilation as done above. Dogma serves as a guide for followers. And dogma of most gods is often impossible to follow up to the letter and to the ideals. Followers strive to close to it as possible, but noone is such doing 100% fullfilling of it (mortals after all), it is always applied to the momentary conditions what is ever able.
I am not saying you have to cheat onto aligment or dogma, but if you know if that elven sentry is going to try and kill you, you will not blindly follow traition to reveal yourself to it. Would Eilistraee demand her followers to get killed over blind following of dogma? Would she ever forgive to a priestess that would loose her followers because insisted on upkeeping dogma up to the letter?


Only thing that bothers me lore wise is (and i know it only per say, it may not be happening) is Eilistraee being outlawed in good aligned cities. I find it awknard (if true) as she is well known, and her communities (non drow ones now) work closely with harpers, and other goodly factions. So if surface followers were forced into hiding while evil aligned gods and their factions are getting grumpy acceptance (Bane?) yes, that would be really weird

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:59 pm Which part of this:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Vhaeraun

and this:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee

is so hard to understand?

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:18 pm Oh, that one is easy. Forgotten Realms wiki mixes and mashes all editions into a massive bundle of nonsense. A lot of what is written there is specifically 4th and 5th edition stuff.

Just in general, Forgotten Realms wiki is an extremely unreliable source. Fine, use it to look up quick things, but always check the sources for details. And don't forget that the short quotes that may support one view or another, often can end up ignoring the overarching context. I think this is something we can all end up being quite guilty of when trying to support our own preferred views.

Confirmation bias, I think the term is.

The heck are the two of you on about?
I don't think anyone's arguing that drow should be accepted into settlements.
These kinds of threads have always kinda gotten derailed into back and forth arguing

I'm simply pointng out to two basic concepts of FR lore: Vhaeraunites and Eilistraeens, both of whom seek surface activity, but Deathgrowl seems to have cherry picked some sentence in those articles in order to ignore the general point.

It isn't failure to understand something that makes BGtSCC what it is, but unwillingness to admit something.

Nothing new under the Sun.

Even if server rules change to allow more UD intraction with Surface, the fact is that lorewise, drow normally are blinded on the surface, drow dont know anything about surface (usually), drow know they arent welcome in the surface, eilistreean drow know that many elves think Eilistraee is a lie (learnedthis both IC and OOC), eilistreean drow should be scared of the surface most of the time, unless they been there many times, scared of strangers and scared of the sun.

These OOC rules are here to prevent the drow from becoming WoW dark elves, even if rules changed, you cannot change the way society works IC (Tolerance is treason) and drow would be slaughtered systematically by ignorant riff raff and drow hunters, face it, even in 200 lore years, surface drow are still taboo, even when the Dark Promenade exists, this is an exception, rather than a rule.

Eilistraee is about saving lost drow (there are a ton of these in Sshamath) , so how is Sshamath not good for eilistreeans? It offers the perfect place to find and guide lost drow into the light, not a place to avoid or hate, but that depends on the player I guess.

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:01 pm I'm simply pointng out to two basic concepts of FR lore: Vhaeraunites and Eilistraeens, both of whom seek surface activity, but Deathgrowl seems to have cherry picked some sentence in those articles in order to ignore the general point.

It isn't failure to understand something that makes BGtSCC what it is, but unwillingness to admit something.

Nothing new under the Sun.

That's actually the point I was trying to make earlier.

Wildsheep wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:32 pm I'd like to bring this up again, arguing and ranting will only make things worse.

DM Ghost wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:53 am I want to remind you all of what zanniej posted earlier. You're not helping any cause by making personal attacks in public on the forums.

Per lore, Eilistraee faithful are supposed to be surface drow. Are their number supposed to be small? Yes. But so is the number of Aasimar and tieflings and almost 1/3 of the server is tieflings at the moment

Eilistraee's priestesses normally came below ground only to woo new converts and lead them' to the surface—something that was normally done in secret.

Temples of the Dark Maiden were typically established in the mouths of caverns or in woodlands, places that allowed her followers to reach the surface world and act there. Temples in the Underdark—even shrines close to the surface—were unusual and the Promenade of the Dark Maiden was unique in being a large center of worship, and the main one, built underground; in the caverns of Undermountain, it was built to prevent the return of one of Ghaunadaur's avatars to Toril.

- Demihuman Deities. (Wizards of the Coast),

Hidden: show

grymhild wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:17 pm

–331 DR Year of Shadows Fleeting
The elf armies of the Coronals Tannivh of Cormanthyr and Connak of Rystall Wood finally break the greater defenses of the Twisted Tower and destroy all remaining drow slavers within the tower. The tower is left in the hands of good dark elf allies, and it is a great temple to Eilistraee within a century.

The Soldier’s Blade [500] is lost during this great battle, captured by the drow in their slaying of Lord Orym Hawksong during the fall of the Twisted Tower. The blade and the body of Lord Orym are taken down into the Underdark as spoils of war by the fleeing drow.
[Cormanthyr Empire of Elves, p.34]

In the Year of Shadows Fleeting (-331 DR), the drow of the Twisted Tower fell to the armies of Cormanthyr and Rystal Wood was left in the hands of good-aligned dark elf allies. Within a century, the Tower of the Dark Moon was Eilistraee's greatest temple in the Realms. [Demihuman Deities p.14]

c-310s
In gratitude for their aid in the Shadow Wars, The Coronal allows the settlement of some reformed, surface-acclimated drow into some remote lands of Cormanthyr to the east of Cormanthor.
[Cormanthyr Empire of Elves, p.34]

The Dark Maiden's temple fell once again to the drow beneath Cormanthyr in the Year of the Apparition (190 DR) and survives today as Shadowdale's primary redoubt where it is known by its original name, the Twisted Tower. All that remains of the Dark Maiden's legacy is the swirl of Eilistraee's moonfire that envelops any follower of Eilistraee who mentions her name within the once-sacred halls. [Demihuman Deities p.14]

194 Year of Coiling Smoke
The temple to Eilistraee and its good dark elves are slaughtered by a new infestation of drow from below; the temple is restored as the Twisted Tower military garrison. [Cormanthyr Empire of Elves, p.37]

As it stands, it's very hard to play a lore accurate Eilistraee priestess since her clergy is told to tell other drow that:

"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.

Obviously, this cannot be done on this server since drow are not allowed to step out from the UD to go live on the surface.

Regardless, I tried to handwave that and continued working towards influencing the communities of the surface, do good from the shadows without actually interacting with people ourselves and start a community of goodly Eilistraeeans somewhere hidden in the woods.

But we've ran into a few issues:

As it stands there aren't many woodsy areas where a group of Eilistraee worshipers can hold a gathering/rituals on the server. There are Silver Rose knights in the open glade in the Misty Forest which makes it impossible to do any kind of gathering there. The Cloakwoods is filled with mobs, the Reachings woods is also extremely hostile with epic level gnolls, it would be nice to have some portion of those woods de-grinded.
We held a small gathering on the Sharpwoods teeth and afterwards received a not so friendly letter from a Doron Amar councilor because apparently they had someone spying on us, as such we have been avoiding the area to not anger an elven settlement.


Comparing that to orcs who have a village on the Northern Tradeway and can both start on the UD or on the Surface. They have their own starting area behind their village in the comet area and caves connected to that area with more mobs that then lead straight up to the Bear cave near Soubar. (They also are an evil, war-like race focused on conquest.)

At the present moment, the type of rp that I envisioned for my Eilistraee priestess (outcast drow living in a hidden community in the woods, dancing under the moonlight, doing good while remaining hidden/unnoticed) is severely gimped by the ooc rules of the server and isn't supported at all, which I think is a shame.

My priestess has no good IC reason to be in Sshamath and I can't properly rp a character that follows a Goddess that preaches "Converting drow away from their wicked ways and telling them to return to the Night above". This for the most part has thrown me off playing her for the most part for now.

The "outcast drow living in a hidden community in the woods, doing good while remaining hidden/unnoticed" type of drow rp that some people expect out of Eilistraee rp is not really fully supported since you're expected to return to the UD after you've finished your business on the surface.
I'm not exactly sure what could be done to make this kind of rp more enjoyable here, but multiple people are afraid that drow will become too common of a sight if anything were to change.

What people is afraid of is their version of the lore to not be respected (yet rockrun exists, lol) so IDK why be so permissive that way but on the other hand surface drow arent.

Though as per server lore goes, Eilistraee should be at least a bit more recognized in Baldurs Gate, especially when an eilistreean drow saved the whole city by herself a few years ago....If that didnt change things back then , what will?

Demihuman Deities wrote:The followers of Eilistraee are figures of legend in both the Underdark and the Lands of Light. They are the subject of superstitions and wildly inaccurate mistruths, held by surface dwellers to be the evil vanguard of the Spider Goddess's plot to plunge all of Faerun into darkness under her rule and held by those drow who follow the Way of Lolth (or other evil gods) to be faerie (surface elf) invaders masquerading as dark elves in preparation for the coming war of annihilation.

Faiths and Pantheons wrote:The Church of Eilistraee is little known and poorly understood by the inhabitants of the surface world. Few among the surface-dwelling races give any credence to rumours of good-aligned drow emerging from the Underdark. The possibility of such a deity who supports such folk is simply beyond the ken of non-elves, who generally dismiss such talk as idle rumour or a plot by evil drow raiders.

Drow of the Underdark 2nd ed wrote:Drow. The Dark Elves. Those Who Have Turned to Evil. In elven tongues, they are referred to by several names: "tirl aukhbhet-ess," "tuer lothnil," and "duiss aszbhar." All of these translate to "The Accursed." The elegant, dark and deadly drow are a hated and feared race.

In the dangerous caverns of the Underdark dwell many horrible monsters, including the drow. Obsidian-skinned kin to elves, this fell race has won mastery of magic—and a cruel reputation. Small children of Faerun hear whispered tales even before they are officially warned of Those Below.

As everyone knows, drow come by night, sporadically raiding the surface realms with their twisted magic and their near-invulnerability to the magic art of most wizards. They are masters of subtle treachery, and cannot be trusted even by their fellows.

So much I heard from a dozen hired swords and caravan-guards in the taverns of Waterdeep when I asked about drow (a subject best avoided, they gave me to know).

Cormanthyr: The Empire of Elves wrote:The only N'Tel'Quess that surface elves truly hate with a passion are the drow, and the drow equally hate and likewise refer to all other elves as N'Tel'Quess.

Cormanthyr: The Empire of Elves wrote:Myth Drannor's mythal prevents the entrance of certain races into the fair city. Chromatic dragons (in draconic or shapechanged forms), drow, duergar, illithids, doppelgangers, orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, and goblins cannot enter the mythal from above, below, or at ground level. The mythal acts as an effective magical barrier as solid as a mountain of stone against their entry.

I'm not sure if I need to point out anything more, but you can see what's written here quite clearly.

More so, you're asking for people to be tolerant of a race that has been mass-slaughtering members of surface races since millennia, in the most atrocious ways possible (Reason why Shevarash Exists. Dark Court Slaughter). Sure, there exists Eilistraee. There are cases where Eilistraeens are acknowledged. But they're not accepted. Not even quite much tolerated, if the only way they allow them to exists is to throw them literally outside of the entire empire during Myth Drannor's time (which, also, didn't allow any drow of any alignment and faith inside) where they get literally next to no contact with elven populations.

Why do I think that's not really reasonable to ask for? Primarily because Forgotten Realms offers more than enough examples of people literally hating others - even good-aligned creatures - for deeds of the fellows of their race. The best example is with dragons after the Year of the Rogue Dragons. In Dragons of Faerun, there's an organisation described- Sisterhood of Essembra. They are half-song and half-silver dragons that help followers of draconic deities become Dragonborn (3.5 edition) and try to dissuade people living in Dalelands from hating all dragons, including metallic ones due to the carnage that they have caused upon the land and its people. Not just a few stray humans or something. Entire populations of Dalelands. They view all dragons, including the known good-aligned ones, with anger and suspicion. Effectively making them at least unwelcome in their lands.

Regarding the comment of the Eilistraeen drow on Evermeet- yup. In 1368DR there comes one onto the island. Only three persons on the entire Green Isle know of her existence, that includes Amlaruil, and she knows that this can't come out to the light because all elves of Evermeet would riot and revolt at what they would consider a sacrilege. On top of the Eilistraeen ambassador there being pointless, as elves will never agree for any drow, Eilistraeen or not, to be allowed to Evermeet. They haven't allowed for that even during the times when Drow were Dark Elves for a reason of the Dark Elves, already, being in majority evil. Dark Elves didn't even participate in creating Evermeet for the reason of them being evil

I'm not saying surface drow should be impossible. They do exist. Not really in this region and depending on the region they may be extremely reviled, moderately so, or tolerated as trade partners (Calimshan, Darkhold, Zhentil Keep). What I am saying is that there is a real, literal canon-lore based hatred against drow kind, regardless of their supposed faith. And that is -also- a legitimate thing for characters to roleplay. Hating drow. Rather common across the Realms. Recognising Eilistraee, acknowledging her and supporting her is, quite clearly stated numerous times, as a rare thing indeed. By default- that's non-conforming with social standards in many cultures (not all of them, of course). If surface drow were to be wholly accepted, tolerated and liked, even if they are Eilistraeens, they would -not- have the entire schtick about redeeming their race and proving that they can be established as good-aligned surface race, as well as there would not be numerous passages about drow being utterly reviled and not trusted at all, with exception to individuals that have proved themselves to be heroes (which is where TSR and WotC always brings Drizzt up as that one and only super powerful utterly good only drow that managed to turn away from his heritage).

To summarise: Drow on the surface? Sure. They totally exist. Not really in this region, but they exist and they are a very much viable concept for a character- nothing to hate or be afraid of. Israe'Anna was an approved surface drow, for example. Should they be treated differently depending on faith? Well, PCs be PCs. It's best left to individual PCs to decide their stance on the drow and what they think is right for them and what is wrong, that is the wonder of a roleplay persistent world. You can roleplay many things! Should they be tolerated by societies depending on faith and/or alignment? By the canon setting? No. Not quite. Barring few corner cases, not quite at all. They are boogeymen used to scare children with and not in any joking manner. By our server setting? Honestly, we shouldn't really have surface drow around these parts, but even then. I'd expect that to be changed only after actual, consistent, well-played roleplay that may eventually sway singular societies into "Hm, maybe I may think twice before attacking a drow b/c they might not be against me", but not expecting "OKAY WE ALL LOVE DROW NOW OF SUCH AND SUCH FAITH AND ALIGNMENT" from the get-go and to happen in but a month or two.

To summarise the above summarise: Both concepts of hating drow and supporting drow, regardless of faith and alignment, are very viable concepts that shouldn't be OOCly hated because it makes no freaking sense for the setting in the first place. However, they -should- be handled appropriately for our setting.

Remember, even though someone does a concept re: drow, one way or another, it doesn't mean you have to do it too or that the entire world is against you.

That's how I see the setting base. I'm not going to touch the mechanical aspects of drow (and, by extension, other Underdark races that are also reviled, with exception to deep gnomes. Deep gnomes are the real victims of Forgotten Realms world) as that's a whoooooole different argument and this topic has been derailed quite a bit.

Also, Liriel Baenre best drow.

I don't think Drow should be more accepted ICly, I think things are fine as they are (although I feel that the consorting law had strange consequences in rp). What I wish were changed is ooc rules to facilitate rp for people who wish to rp outcast/secretive Eili drow who want to be more focused on the surface.

As Cosmic Ray also had said:

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:01 pmNot that I think there is any relevance in my saying it, but I'd let IC constraints be the the only ones in place.

I certainly don't want to see BG city opening its arms to welcome drow and orcs. In fact, I get a little frustrated whenever my drow is easily accepted amongst strangers, not that it happens often, at least not as often as to my tirfling. I have to go out of my way md rp my tiefling as a complete and utter bitch in order to elicit the reactions from others that should come out naturally.

Ravial wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:50 pmNot really in this region

There should be Eilistraeean drow in the Misty Forest