Spawn Rates

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The MMOSpawner's implementation came on the heels of prohibiting stationary grinding.
Circle grinding came as a result of the implementation to retrigger the spawning location.
No one making those areas where creatures spawn under the old encounter system or the newer mmospawner ever designed the system nor had the areas that used it, to be limited to one and done dungeons.

[Bobthehero]

Removing scaling mobs hurts non powerbuilds more than they do powerbuilds, anyway, given that the latter will be able to move on to another area sooner, get more XP, level up faster, while non powerbuilds are stuck in the lower CR zones, except now there's no scaling to make their XP gain keep up for the gap before they can move on to the next area.

This is one of the things where you can make an argument that makes sense in either direction. Fortunately, we'll be able to get the answer with certainty once players have adjusted their habits to these changes, so such dialectics are unnecessary.

Right, dismiss the feedback regarding the changes from the player base. That'll go well, I am sure

[Rhifox]

The MMOSpawner's implementation came on the heels of prohibiting stationary grinding.
Circle grinding came as a result of the implementation to retrigger the spawning location.
No one making those areas where creatures spawn under the old encounter system or the newer mmospawner ever designed the system nor had the areas that used it, to be limited to one and done dungeons.

[gedweyignasia]

Removing scaling mobs hurts non powerbuilds more than they do powerbuilds, anyway, given that the latter will be able to move on to another area sooner, get more XP, level up faster, while non powerbuilds are stuck in the lower CR zones, except now there's no scaling to make their XP gain keep up for the gap before they can move on to the next area.

This is one of the things where you can make an argument that makes sense in either direction. Fortunately, we'll be able to get the answer with certainty once players have adjusted their habits to these changes, so such dialectics are unnecessary.

Right, dismiss the feedback regarding the changes from the player base. That'll go well, I am sure

I'm sorry, I think perhaps I was unclear. I absolutely care about how you feel about the changes. I'm just not interested in discussing (at this time) what the changes are going to do to the server. It is not an effective use of either of our time to speculate on its effects and try to convince the other person we are right, because we will have an exact answer once players have finished adjusting to the changes. Once we have a result, it may be useful to deconstruct it and understand why things played out that way. For now, I just want to wait for the result.

[FallingStar]

A thread full of negative feedback about the change is data.

[gedweyignasia]

A thread full of negative feedback about the change is data.

The negative feedback started before people had tried the changes.


We understand how a lot of people feel about this, and we don't like doing things that piss people off. It's really, really not fun getting yelled at by a ton of angry players. We're still going to do our best to balance the server's content and make your progression both meaningful to your RP and enjoyable to players.

[FallingStar]

To be honest, I didn't comment about the changes until after I noticed their effects on my leveling and adventuring experience. What, exactly, is there to gain by continuing with this unpopular project that appears to be doing exactly what you're trying to avoid, which is pissing off the players?

[Young Werther]

Oh, oh I know! Lower the spawns but raise the xp. I think it's a win-win.

[Ravial]

Well, all I am going to say is that I think nobody wants to have a harder, longer time to level in this game, anymore. The era of 2000' mmorpg grinding progression and its enjoyment is far gone (Aside from various Korean MMOs, the masochists).

So I think it's kind of to be expected people are going to be displeased/hate any change that makes it more difficult to get to level 30, even if the change's done with good intentions. Our server culture and design promotes getting as fast as it is possible to level 30, because that's when the characters begin to "matter" in the roleplay scene, at this moment.

That's something to keep in mind for any future changes about such things as spawn rates, exp income, the difficulty of dungeons and otherwise.

[Planehopper]

That all areas should be equally productive and equally used is a new way of looking at things that, to my knowledge, is not something that was ever discussed. I would think that would be something mentioned to builders..

This is a discussion for the dev forums.

Telling the players they shouldn't race to 30, and then having every major campaign, story, and arc revolve around the same set of level 30 characters is a bit of a disconnect.

This is a discussion for the DM-Dev forums.

I disagree.

This server is a community. We all contribute, players and staff, in a shared vision of storytelling and fun. If there is a point to your changes, if there is a goal you are attempting to reach, the players should know what it is so they can decide whether they agree with it or not. That matters, right? That the players are having fun? Transparency is something we are supposed to be striving for here - and changing the goals of the server is something everyone should be aware of, not just those with dev access.

Our goal here should be to ensure that the players perceive their time here as fun. That's a measurement that is as individual as it is varied, but one we have tried to keep in mind for the last fifteen years. A backbone of our success, in my opinion. All the numbers in the world cannot measure player perception. But this thread can. Discord can. The players themselves can.

And, to me, it seems like quite a few aren't really enjoying this 'experiment'.

[gedweyignasia]

And, to me, it seems like quite a few aren't really enjoying this 'experiment'.

People keep calling this an experiment. Why are they doing that? I don't think I've ever called it an experiment. We believe these changes are an improvement. We're always rebalancing areas, but I've requested that we don't rebalance any further for another month or so because iterating too quickly will prevent us from fully appreciating what our last changes did.

If we were iterating more quickly, I imagine the spawn rates would not have been increased again, but wyverns would have been rebalanced to be a threat again in light of the effects of the neutralize poison rebalance that has recently gained attention for its role in changing the wyverns' place in the server.

[Planehopper]

People keep calling this an experiment. Why are they doing that? I don't think I've ever called it an experiment.

You did on the staff discord, yeah. I didn't think you'd want me to screenshot that, so you'll have to take my word for it.

But semantics aside, the "make a change and ignore player feedback until they 'adjust to it'" feels very experiment-y.

[gedweyignasia]

You did on the staff discord, yeah. I didn't think you'd want me to screenshot that, so you'll have to take my word for it.

You'll notice I quickly recognized it was the wrong choice of words there, and chose not to repeat that here. My intention was to convey that balancing is an iterative process which requires feedback from the previous step before proceeding to the next one.

There's a reason we keep dev conversations private instead of repeating them in public:
- We can discuss mechanics in details which are not publicly known
- We can share ideas without worrying about scaring or pissing off the playerbase while those ideas are still being refined
- We can present a cohesive face when addressing the playerbase so as to avoid factionalizing the development team or singling out individual developers to be held personally accountable for changes
- We don't have to worry about our words being misinterpreted and used as ammunition against us because we're in an environment of patient, understanding people who will work with us to understand what we're trying to say instead of engaging in toxic and combative behaviors

I cannot begin to express how disappointed I am with you when it comes to the last two points. I don't want to be on your team. I don't want to share my ideas with you. I don't want to listen to your feedback. I tried that, and it constantly feels like you're listening for a weakness that you can attack and use to discredit others' ideas, eschewing context and clarification.

But since you've asked for screenshots, let me share them.

Hidden: show

Here's my description of the changes, which you were fully aware of. It was pretty clear I didn't think of it as an experiment, but as a step in an iterative process.


Here's the only two times I've used the word "experiment" on the staff Discord, the first clearly me wryly going on with another individual's choice of the word, which proved to be a mistake, so I corrected myself.

If you'd made your above post between 9:10am and 9:35am EST on 02/07/2022, I would have understood why you'd try to throw my words back at me. That's not the case. You know that's not the case. And now I know not to discuss anything which I consider to be private in a channel that you are able to read.

[Blaze]

''What we wanted''

You and Valefort, not we, your playerbase is giving a shitload of bad feedbacks and you don't even need 1 month for datas.

As I said on discord, the NWN2 community has matured with time, who was once 20 years old is now 30, if such a thing had happened 10 years ago you would have been inundated by an interminable shitstorm from your players , now you are getting negative feedback where players list what is wrong with this update.
My curiosity now is to know if among those ''thumbs ups'' there are devs actively playing on the server, devs who really know how difficult the content being offered is and how tedious is to get xp.

[eternal night]

My last two cents here, I played the wyverns area for around 5 to 10 minutes, maybe even less and made about 200 exp (getting 50 exp per kill on a character level 15), felt like wasting my time while wasting my time. So if these changes are to stay, just use them to rp.

It'a a lie that the server is made for lvl 30s and I have no idea why people believe this to be the case.

And in danger of beating a dead horse, I believe there are worse underlying problems with the server rather than how long it takes to level up, but not wanting to go off topic too much, both issues are interconnected, a power obsessed playstyle that permeates everything from culture to the rp to player OOC behavior, it's all obsession with power and the focus really needs to change for things to move forward

Happy Valentine day.