Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Bobthehero wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:42 am 4

3 just screws with martials, and martials only, so it's not a good solution.

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:23 am I understand that many want to make this game like pnp but that will never happen with nwn2.

MrSmith wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:10 pm There are ways to drive the server's behavior without going to extremes... DM's could cap events at Lvl 15 and below if you want to balance content around events.

I strongly oppose option 1 at level of a server-ruining/dealbreaker aspect - reasoning is simple: it cuts access from True Resurrection.

Like with ToT, my point of contention is not about mechanics - but roleplay/narrative before anyone accuses me of "you play for RP, right? Why do you need builds/levels?" RP-wise, I'm a staunch Simulationist/Immersionist per rgfa definitions.

True Resurrection must be available to players without NPC aid so as to liberate players from DM fiat. To reduce max level to 15 is to encourage DMs to hand out permadeath far more readily citing "your body could not be recovered, tough luck.".

Furthermore, intelligence based fighters become outright impossible to play unless you take Swashbuckler. Duelist requires ~7-8 levels to start to become a positive and you need at least level 23 for int to damage.

Finally, there is a massive loss of granularity. 30 options to pick and choose a class, even if limited to just 4 classes (much to my frustration) allows for far more realistic representation of a person than 15 levels offer. In my ideal system, we'd do away with the entire notion of levels and classes and just buy abilities with experience. Barring that, more levels helps somewhat mimic this.

Again - the breaking point here is due to **roleplay**, not mechanics. If Resurrection was ubiquitously available as it was pre-ToT, I would not be taking a break. While post-factum, I'd learned Candlekeep will be able to provide Resurrections in addition to Helmites, I already sent my character off to Evermeet to ensure she won't get perma'd due to "spells over level 3 divine casting are prevented from working, so no resurrection for you." And considering travel time (esp without magic), I can't just reverse it until ToT ends.

Loss of level 9 spells from cap at 15 is the same: it's an RP issue, not a mechanical one.

For option 2, my opposition is more eased. The narrative power issue (loss of True Resurrection) is eased, so it's no longer a deal-breaker.

However, playing an intelligence based fighter, whether armoured or not, remains non-viable as you MUST take swashbuckler to be able to deal ANY damage. My current post-ToT build of cleric 3 (Chaos/Good and Healing), Bard 14, Duelist 10 and Shadowdancer 3 build could not be translated in any manner I could think of.

Duelist 7 is a must-have for a non-fullplate tank. Duelist 10 is a must have to have damage with Combat Insight without Swashbuckler.

With that consideration, I'd be limited to 10 duelist, 2 shadowdancer, 6 bard, 2 cleric. I'm not sure this could even function however, as right now, progression is: 3 cleric (BAB 1), 7 Bard (BAB 1 + 6 = 7, plus paying feat tax), 8 duelist, Shadowdancer 3. SD can only be taken after level 16 due to dex requirement, and 7 bard/3cleric is mandatory due to BAB requirements

And the issue remains of lacking damage without lvl 3: combat insight

For option 3, this I would be fine with provided epic levels progress APR.

I have no issues with this option, and have offered criticisms in the past that PvE is strongly imbalanced in the environment's favour due to their infinite resources and ability to roll numerous natural 20s even 1 on 1.

As an added note, if a desire manifests to introduce squad-spawns or more, there should be a different cap for PCs and NPCs - even at 4 APR, 6-7 enemies will immediately melt a non-mirror image tank, even in a party due to all the nat 20s. This I experience at 3 fire elementals at greypeaks already unless I use mirror image to fight them. Even with 60 AC, that encounter costs me 100-150 HP

For option 4,

Declare narrative level to be 20 to guarantee access to True Resurrection and liberate players from potential DM abuse.

Then, adjust PvE stats to be 2x their monster manual (etc.) stats.

Then, to resolve issues of absurd damage output by the MM-correct stats: cap PvE monster APR at 3/4 unless yellow-name/boss.



On Narrative/RP note

To note, my ideal opposition/conflict is one centered around trade wars, national wars, religious conflicts and general things you'd expect in realm of level 5-15. My favourite metaplots were the Amn-Gate war and the subsequent rebuilding under DM Darkshard.

I dislike world-ending conflicts and planar invasions - partially, but especially, because they carry a risk of harming characters' souls. And also, because my goal with roleplay is simulationism/immersionism - and such is better served by "grounded" activities where personality and identity matter more than raw power. However, I do not see why adapting our scope of events and plotlines would require players losing access to level 9 spells.

Ready, non-DM dictated access to True Resurrection and Resurrection and Regenerate and Greater Restoration and Heal is not about mechanics. I know "bloodstaunch" exists. But it does nothing when a trap blows up immolating you to ash. Or a hill giant's sword bisects you. Or a rock turns you into a bloody puddle. Or a beetle spits acid at you, scarring you for life with painful, itchy suffering. Or a goblin throws fireball at you, crippling you for life with severe burns. Or you fall off a mountain/get knocked into lava/pool of acid. Or a shadow drains you to 0 strength. Even when making distinction of HP vs wounds, you WILL suffer these. It's not an IF, it's a WHEN. All these are things that can happen on server at just level 10-15. I know PvE deaths are treated as knockouts/retreats. That does not remove the need for True Resurrection. Without level 9 spells, character lifespan is limited severely.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:35 am

FearBeforeTheFlames wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:28 am I'd stick firmly to 4; and focus on homebrewing content within current systems and operating improvements in other areas. - I appreciate the thought and the work that's been done. Some of the larger radical changes have implications that have heavy penalties for players that have spent years on things they've lovingly crafted here working under the current system. Change is good; but we're an old community of friends - with amazing new editions. There's ways here to avoid nuking the camp.

I agree with this. Look at the Kuo Toa dungeon in the UD. It can be a challenged for higher level characters because of the way it is built. This could be true of plenty of epic areas by reworking the design of the encounters instead of reworking the entire server.

Make epic encounters like the devils and dragons far more powerful and there’s no need to nerf everything else.