Update on Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Rain]

- It took 2 whole years of consecutive RP which most of that RP was forum based (because the DM's like that stuff for some reason.)

Were the two years of RP hitting milestones regularly?

All the RP is there and easily traceable.

Yes. If you just want me to answer the question.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

- It took 2 whole years of consecutive RP which most of that RP was forum based (because the DM's like that stuff for some reason.)

Were the two years of RP hitting milestones regularly?

All the RP is there and easily traceable.

Yes. If you just want me to answer the question.

Not criticism, just curiosity on the progress and delays between them.

[Tekill]

BURN IN THE HELLS TEAM GOOD!!! BUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRNNNNNN!!!

Ahhh...thank you. That feels better.

My orc was recently in the Yuan-Ti temple with a group of my fellow Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain Mustache Twirlers (I can call us that because I am evil. Team good your not allowed - how dare you!).

My orcs name is Skagrot Skullsplitter, get familiar with the name, because he is coming for you!
After getting the killing blow on the Yuan-ti queen, Skag, cut out her heart and began eating it. He offered to the rest of the group who mostly declined it. All except a crazy elf who although did not seem to enjoy it, still took a bite!
(Dont ask why an orc and a elf were together in the same party- I can not explain it, you would have to have been there).

That was some fun RP. I really enjoyed it. And generally speaking, eating the hearts of your enemies is kind of evil or morally questionable. So its possible!
I think this is an example of character development that Deathgrowl mentioned previously in this thread.

I'm personally not interested in empire building. Rather, I am interested in character development. Stories about people and monsters.

Character development is good stuff. It is even enough for me, at least for now....

But character development does not just happen by itself. It needs:

1)plot - I prayed to the gods to find out if it it was possible to buy a quantity of an illegal spice that contain hallucinatory properties, for the purpose of reselling. The God's replied to me: "this is a PG server and so that is forbidden. We have to think of all the 13 year old kids that play this game." So, I killed the Frost Giant king ten thousand times, the end.

2)Setting -
The Admin has a plan for the way the world is going to be. And there is nothing any of us, good or evil, can do to change that view. Regardless of how unrealistic it is not to change this plan.
Is it unfair of me to make this accusation?
Let us look at Soubar. It can never seem to ever change. Is it true that it will always be this way no matter how many players, their factions, their collective armies, attempt to alter this tent city, it will never change?
How do we not meta game this information? How do we play our characters, with the ooc knowledge that we will never be able make an impact there?
If the north was really seriously given to the players of questionable morality then of course we should be able to make Soubar a hub!
Some of the responses in this thread have been very discouraging.
The setting is forgotten realms lore that can be interpreted it in different ways with all sorts of liberties taken. So do not use that as an excuse.

3)Story -
My bard character a drow servant of Lolth was barely ever actually in the game but had many exciting adventures and a very detailed story. I spent more time writing her story than I did in game because there was nothing happening in game. It is primarily up to the individual players to create their story for the most part but it is heavily dependent on DMs and other players. I can take the smallest plot in game and add it to my characters big picture story. But there still needs to be plots for there to be a story. I will say I still had a surprisingly lot of fun with that bard. I hated bards up until that character.

4) Prophecy - Our actions today will have ramifications tomorrow. When my orc reaches level 30, the grinding sessions with my fellow Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain Mustache Twirlers, will become less fun, unless I can find new ways to eat the hearts of my enemies (and avoid getting his heart eaten).

We have established concretely many times in the past that the admin here stifle and control evil RP. They have come out and declared it openly on this forum.
PVP trolls once hurt the pride of RP'ers back in the day and the RP'ers complained to admin. This drove the admin crazy and so to end the drama they created all sorts of strict rules and started acting very prejudicial towards evil factions. Evil factions have since behaved very well (who's a good boy?...yeeeesss..we are) and so admin are loosening their death grip on team evils throats. A LITTLE.

I think the DM's want to entertain our wicked schemes and team evil has received some love. I think as usual the DM's are very much overwhelmed and working with a not ideal systems. They are volunteers so if they only want to play with good aligned players who am I to say they are fools that don't know who the cool characters are.

As evil players we know our path is the one less traveled and is harder to walk than the paths of the ugly weak pathetic good aligned players. But at the same time the Admin can still do a lot more to allow us to make an impact on the setting and give us more opportunities to create plots which will allow our stories to grow and maybe most importantly learn the ramifications for our wicked ways!

Yes that is right team good, I was with all your mothers last night. All your moms told me they like my company better than yours!

[OneExtraHand]

BURN IN THE HELLS TEAM GOOD!!! BUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRNNNNNN!!!

Ahhh...thank you. That feels better.

My orc was recently in the Yuan-Ti temple with a group of my fellow Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain Mustache Twirlers (I can call us that because I am evil. Team good your not allowed - how dare you!).

My orcs name is Skagrot Skullsplitter, get familiar with the name, because he is coming for you!
After getting the killing blow on the Yuan-ti queen, Skag, cut out her heart and began eating it. He offered to the rest of the group who mostly declined it. All except a crazy elf who although did not seem to enjoy it, still took a bite!
(Dont ask why an orc and a elf were together in the same party- I can not explain it, you would have to have been there).

That was some fun RP. I really enjoyed it. And generally speaking, eating the hearts of your enemies is kind of evil or morally questionable. So its possible!
I think this is an example of character development that Deathgrowl mentioned previously in this thread.

I'm personally not interested in empire building. Rather, I am interested in character development. Stories about people and monsters.

Character development is good stuff. It is even enough for me, at least for now....

But character development does not just happen by itself. It needs:

1)plot - I prayed to the gods to find out if it it was possible to buy a quantity of an illegal spice that contain hallucinatory properties, for the purpose of reselling. The God's replied to me: "this is a PG server and so that is forbidden. We have to think of all the 13 year old kids that play this game." So, I killed the Frost Giant king ten thousand times, the end.

2)Setting -
The Admin has a plan for the way the world is going to be. And there is nothing any of us, good or evil, can do to change that view. Regardless of how unrealistic it is not to change this plan.
Is it unfair of me to make this accusation?
Let us look at Soubar. It can never seem to ever change. Is it true that it will always be this way no matter how many players, their factions, their collective armies, attempt to alter this tent city, it will never change?
How do we not meta game this information? How do we play our characters, with the ooc knowledge that we will never be able make an impact there?
If the north was really seriously given to the players of questionable morality then of course we should be able to make Soubar a hub!
Some of the responses in this thread have been very discouraging.
The setting is forgotten realms lore that can be interpreted it in different ways with all sorts of liberties taken. So do not use that as an excuse.

3)Story -
My bard character a drow servant of Lolth was barely ever actually in the game but had many exciting adventures and a very detailed story. I spent more time writing her story than I did in game because there was nothing happening in game. It is primarily up to the individual players to create their story for the most part but it is heavily dependent on DMs and other players. I can take the smallest plot in game and add it to my characters big picture story. But there still needs to be plots for there to be a story. I will say I still had a surprisingly lot of fun with that bard. I hated bards up until that character.

4) Prophecy - Our actions today will have ramifications tomorrow. When my orc reaches level 30, the grinding sessions with my fellow Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain Mustache Twirlers, will become less fun, unless I can find new ways to eat the hearts of my enemies (and avoid getting his heart eaten).

We have established concretely many times in the past that the admin here stifle and control evil RP. They have come out and declared it openly on this forum.
PVP trolls once hurt the pride of RP'ers back in the day and the RP'ers complained to admin. This drove the admin crazy and so to end the drama they created all sorts of strict rules and started acting very prejudicial towards evil factions. Evil factions have since behaved very well (who's a good boy?...yeeeesss..we are) and so admin are loosening their death grip on team evils throats. A LITTLE.

I think the DM's want to entertain our wicked schemes and team evil has received some love. I think as usual the DM's are very much overwhelmed and working with a not ideal systems. They are volunteers so if they only want to play with good aligned players who am I to say they are fools that don't know who the cool characters are.

As evil players we know our path is the one less traveled and is harder to walk than the paths of the ugly weak pathetic good aligned players. But at the same time the Admin can still do a lot more to allow us to make an impact on the setting and give us more opportunities to create plots which will allow our stories to grow and maybe most importantly learn the ramifications for our wicked ways!

Yes that is right team good, I was with all your mothers last night. All your moms told me they like my company better than yours!

based af and may Skagrot crush the skulls of all his enemies!

[Grimwald]

Undead summons are KoS.

Yes

This means that if a player has an undead summon out, they should expect others to immediately hostile the summon and attempt to kill it.

I've come to expect alot more then that

If you have an undead out and a druid sees it, he has a duty to destroy it ICly. It would be bad RP if they didn't try to kill it.

And my aversion to having my undead attacked leads to me attacking druids that attack my undead. RP is a hell of a justification when it serves you.
If thats the extent of the interaction you want to have then that's all you are going to get. If you want to wax philosophical about death and nature then you should try that route instead of charging me like a monkey going for the banana.

With that being said, the toon controlling the summon is NOT KoS. Normal PvP rules still apply, such as granting an RP out.

Ideally thats what happens but it's typically not the case.

A great example of this was my druid was in the forest, and saw someone with a skeleton out. My druid immediately killed the skeleton. The toon then looked to my druid and said, "Oh, thank goodness! You've saved me!" and left. That was a valid, and clever RP out he took.

Good on you for going along with it and im pretty sure i know the player you are talking about. As i said my play is tainted by 4 years of bad experiences and it's utterly impossible to know someones true intentions.

At any rate, if your hardline stance is undeath must be put to rest and attack undead on sight then what course of action is there for a necromancer who thinks undead is a manifestation of their gods will? I can stand there and watch you kill everything before telling you to go to hell or i can react as im being attacked.
If you play the hardline role then you are gonna get a hardline response.

"Hey, I have an undead summon out, it's free to kill,

I think this is where the primary fundamental issue is. No it's not "free to kill", there is a cost. That cost is typically the necromancers patience.
If you choose to attack someones undead then you are basically putting the ball in their court in if they want to respond or not. The undead is the extension of the caster and attacking it opens you up to pvp. Undead are KOS but It's not the obligation of someone to just impotently stand there while you mop up their summons and then proceed to make demands of them.

and will likely set off a potential PvP encounter."

Darn tootin it will

Older players should play their character, too. If they would immediately kill an undead summons, then they should. We do not alter established RP simply because someone is new.

Good, great, you do that.
However, the way you mention "established rp" makes me think you only care about how a druid would respond to undead and not how a necromancer would respond to a druid attacking their undead. It's a two way street. Hardline attitude, hardline response, etc, etc.

Not intending to derail but yes that was me as Gaven Arkalis, and I thank you for that! I hope some continued RP can come of it and I appreciate you guys for the interaction as well!

Cheers!

[JustAnotherGuy]

Hidden: show

Undead summons are KoS.

Yes

This means that if a player has an undead summon out, they should expect others to immediately hostile the summon and attempt to kill it.

I've come to expect alot more then that

If you have an undead out and a druid sees it, he has a duty to destroy it ICly. It would be bad RP if they didn't try to kill it.

And my aversion to having my undead attacked leads to me attacking druids that attack my undead. RP is a hell of a justification when it serves you.
If thats the extent of the interaction you want to have then that's all you are going to get. If you want to wax philosophical about death and nature then you should try that route instead of charging me like a monkey going for the banana.

With that being said, the toon controlling the summon is NOT KoS. Normal PvP rules still apply, such as granting an RP out.

Ideally thats what happens but it's typically not the case.

A great example of this was my druid was in the forest, and saw someone with a skeleton out. My druid immediately killed the skeleton. The toon then looked to my druid and said, "Oh, thank goodness! You've saved me!" and left. That was a valid, and clever RP out he took.

Good on you for going along with it and im pretty sure i know the player you are talking about. As i said my play is tainted by 4 years of bad experiences and it's utterly impossible to know someones true intentions.

At any rate, if your hardline stance is undeath must be put to rest and attack undead on sight then what course of action is there for a necromancer who thinks undead is a manifestation of their gods will? I can stand there and watch you kill everything before telling you to go to hell or i can react as im being attacked.
If you play the hardline role then you are gonna get a hardline response.

"Hey, I have an undead summon out, it's free to kill,

I think this is where the primary fundamental issue is. No it's not "free to kill", there is a cost. That cost is typically the necromancers patience.
If you choose to attack someones undead then you are basically putting the ball in their court in if they want to respond or not. The undead is the extension of the caster and attacking it opens you up to pvp. Undead are KOS but It's not the obligation of someone to just impotently stand there while you mop up their summons and then proceed to make demands of them.

and will likely set off a potential PvP encounter."

Darn tootin it will

Older players should play their character, too. If they would immediately kill an undead summons, then they should. We do not alter established RP simply because someone is new.

Good, great, you do that.
However, the way you mention "established rp" makes me think you only care about how a druid would respond to undead and not how a necromancer would respond to a druid attacking their undead. It's a two way street. Hardline attitude, hardline response, etc, etc.

Not intending to derail but yes that was me as Gaven Arkalis, and I thank you for that! I hope some continued RP can come of it and I appreciate you guys for the interaction as well!

Cheers!

Wanted to point out that a druid attacking an undead summon is the druid consenting to PvP. It's perfectly ok for the owner of the summon to jump in and attack the person attacking their summons, and is expected in most cases. I do believe this handles most of your objections to what I've said. I agree that having a summon attacked can, and likely will, have consequences. And I, as the player of the druid in this scenario, am prepared to face the consequences of my actions, as should we all.

[Grimwald]

Hidden: show

Wanted to point out that a druid attacking an undead summon is the druid consenting to PvP. It's perfectly ok for the owner of the summon to jump in and attack the person attacking their summons, and is expected in most cases. I do believe this handles most of your objections to what I've said. I agree that having a summon attacked can, and likely will, have consequences. And I, as the player of the druid in this scenario, am prepared to face the consequences of my actions, as should we all.

Oh great. I wasn't really sure where you were going in your response and just wanted to set the record straight. I've gotten alot of tells from people in the past who didn't really seem to understand how things worked.
Sorry if it came across as angry

[Rhifox]

Imo one of the biggest reasons sh*t like this post happens is because so many people for some reason just can't get along OOC. Its always favoritism this, favoritism that, dms hate me this, dms love person X, my timezone sucks, ppl don't like me, I heard X person sucks, echo chambers of hate (like most guild discords), blah blah. It's always that instead of focusing on your own fun. I play good characters and have fun, I play evil characters and have fun. I've had a half-drow ghaunadauran, I have my svirf, I have a shamanic drow, I have a red wizard. I've grown to HATE the "team evil" "team good" "team whatever" thing because it always devolves into "we are hated and everyone else gets everything". It's tiring, this post just reinforces that thought for me.

yall drive the good (as in quality) RP away with this sh*t

One hundred percent truth.

Everything was going fine until this thread got restarted. If I am going to be completely honest about the state of evil RP: The biggest issue that I have experienced with evil players is the tendency for things to devolve into complaining, backtalking, and constantly taking everything OOC and looking for excuses to hate other players or DMs. Making OOC drama instead of just RPing.

All you need to have a thriving RP community is an active playerbase. Team evil has an active hub now, that's what we needed. As long as stuff is happening and you have other players to share the experience with, nothing else really matters. Win, lose, it's all RP.

[Rinzler]

I don’t think simply dismissing any type feedback as illegitimate is productive either.

[DaloLorn]

[Multiple posts' worth of "Marshall and the other paladins were restored after facing Cyric" being reinterpreted as "good can never lose"]

I might have been more sympathetic to this argument if one of my "good" (CN, but she strongly self-identifies with what would normally be considered Team Good) characters weren't in the middle of having a meltdown (albeit stalled by constant failure to meet the people needed to move the plot along) over one of FearBeforeTheFlames' other characters permadying literally days before Boareskyr.

It's not that cut-and-dry, and I'm starting to think AoS might have been right in suspecting Locke's death tainted your view of the event.

[Long rant describing too many rulebreaks to address individually]

Report. Report. Report. Half of your post up to the Temple of Bhaal was just an unending stream of encounters mostly culminating in your attackers breaking one or more server rules. If they won't take your word that the rules are as they are, then they'd damn well better take the DMs' word for it.

(Kudos to VJ and JAG, though, for being better than that and explaining how these conflicts should be handled, respectively!)

Character development is good stuff. It is even enough for me, at least for now....

But character development does not just happen by itself. It needs:

This is one of those parts I just really want to quote for emphasis. I may not agree with every detail of what you said after this, but this was absolutely spot-on. It really is a shame we're on opposite sides of the world; I'm sure I'd enjoy bouncing off you, as friend or foe alike.

As long as stuff is happening and you have other players to share the experience with, nothing else really matters. Win, lose, it's all RP.

This, IMO, is more important than having a hub. By far. (Granted, the hub usually helps you get it in the first place...)

[Tekill]

Imo one of the biggest reasons sh*t like this post happens is because so many people for some reason just can't get along OOC. Its always favoritism this, favoritism that, dms hate me this, dms love person X, my timezone sucks, ppl don't like me, I heard X person sucks, echo chambers of hate (like most guild discords), blah blah. It's always that instead of focusing on your own fun. I play good characters and have fun, I play evil characters and have fun. I've had a half-drow ghaunadauran, I have my svirf, I have a shamanic drow, I have a red wizard. I've grown to HATE the "team evil" "team good" "team whatever" thing because it always devolves into "we are hated and everyone else gets everything". It's tiring, this post just reinforces that thought for me.

yall drive the good (as in quality) RP away with this sh*t

One hundred percent truth.

Everything was going fine until this thread got restarted. If I am going to be completely honest about the state of evil RP: The biggest issue that I have experienced with evil players is the tendency for things to devolve into complaining, backtalking, and constantly taking everything OOC and looking for excuses to hate other players or DMs. Making OOC drama instead of just RPing.

All you need to have a thriving RP community is an active playerbase. Team evil has an active hub now, that's what we needed. As long as stuff is happening and you have other players to share the experience with, nothing else really matters. Win, lose, it's all RP.

Fair point.

If I was DM, and heard my player me call foul on some of my DM decisions I would instantly disintegrate those players. So I will say letting us overly demanding internet nerds rant about it on this forums is much appreciated. I will dial back the complaining.

Try not to take it too seriously, this is the internet after all.

I will give a new answer to the update on team evil morally question:
I think there has been improvements and effort made with respect to how team evil is treated. I am pleased by this because I never expected there to be any at all. It has kept me from quitting this game. After all, I now am RPing a mountain orc that is not totally despised and hated by all.

Oh, but dont get me wrong, I'll be watching you Team Good!
(and your moms)

[selhan]

:O Wot this this thread!

I see a few hubs for different things ..alignment you can call it i guess?

FAI (Team Noob, and neutrals)
Roaringshore (Team Anything Goes!)
BG Campfire (Team Gate)
Soubar (Team Evil)
Beregost(Team Grinders)

[DaloLorn]

Beregost is Team Grinders?! Since when? It has no fast travel to any epic content, it's not adjacent to any epic content of its own...

Soubar, Vallanar, and BG/Nashkel, yes. But Beregost?

[Louvaine]

I'm happy to see some conversation. I'm happy to imagine in my head that people's thoughts are taken into consideration. I wouldn't want to think that my fellow players, both DMs and the regulars, would rather shush out a conversation. I think we just need to learn how to communicate better. So here goes. I definitely overreacted in my response. I'm just so hurt by being dismissed. Is that how before mentioned good side players felt? That I don't understand or that I dismiss the consequences of their heroic fight?

I have my thoughts on how this server handles permadeath and permastrikes. I wouldn't want to see any of those being forced onto a player and frankly, DM Soulcatcher did a stellar job presenting options and being supportive in building further role-play. I can only imagine there's more role-play coming from that scene we played at the bridge. That's amazing. What I can't get my head wrapped around is how defying a deity didn't mean being seriously hurt. I appreciate hearing that other deities involved and it sort of balancing out. Maybe it's my fondness of settings lower on power scale, I did sit out ToT for a reason, but I feel like at some point if we carry on going into setting rid of consequences, it will leave us playing characters that aren't realistic, that aren't afraid, that hold no relatable values or have relatable flaws. Not to say this is currently the case. I just wonder what growth we strive for, you know? If you feel like I'm missing something here, which I think that many do, then please let me know. I'm not involved in any of this on my new character, I promise I won't metagame if you want to share what role-play followed, or what consequences that affect you IC taken place.

The reason why I brought up the paladins at bridge was because seeing what kind of things our characters get to do without facing any consequences. I truly believe that anyone could do anything and if they simply denied accepting consequences of death, specifically death, they could walk free. I truly believe that. I was taught this by how things like this are handled. Am I wrong? Maybe. Am I hoping that sharing my view would spark a constructive conversation? Absolutely. Do I want to undercut other role-play that followed in aftermath of what transpired? No. I never addressed this, for a reason. I don't know what those players are up to, what their characters are doing. I'm sure that there's plenty of role-play opportunity there, I just feel like next time anyone who witnessed it will face a god, they will logically assume they can walk away from that. We already saw that with other powerful beings.

Now, all that was just mentioned because I wanted to express to JustAnotherGuy that I don't believe his character would face any consequences for walking into Darkhold, guns blazing. Or bows. Even if he would get permastriked... I don't think that means anything IC. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but perhaps it's best to start another subject for that.

I kind of thought that this place might be more for much needed thoughts and feedback on playing team evil. After seeing so many responses to simply not give feedback, to not air out frustrations, to not talk, I am now more than ever certain that this needs to be talked about. It needs to be heard. Pretending all is well, because your players aren't speaking negatives, is not healthy. It won't solve problems, it won't make them disappear. It will mean that people are going to stop playing. You have to understand that. You have to understand that when players talk about things like that, when they give feedback, it's a good thing. It comes from passion. When they stop talking, that's when they have probably moved on to another place, one more willing to take their thoughts into consideration. I know many did. I know I consider it when I'm talked to like I'm having some argument rather than being understood and spoken to with dignity.

On that note, I absolutely adore the way Alexander Marshall's player was able to address me and make me feel both respected and educated by his words at the same time. Hats off to that person.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I managed ALFA's NWN1 Open Application Server back in the day, the server was a permanent death server, and the world was designed such that the nearly 100 DMs would manage the experience directly. In NWN1 and 2, and generally D&D, death is cheapened and inconsistent, though I prefer a PW that has a stronger enforcement but that's not what we built because that's not what the playerbase wanted. Today, that playerbase is still not thoroughly comfortable with the idea given the simplicity of rolling a character with the sole intention of being ruinous of stories that have had an investment on the world they were in, and an impact all the same to those tangentially to its legacy. Fewer direct presences of deities and more saturation of their scions and representors would ease and shift the narrative of god dodging as that seems to be the biggest crux presented for that scene.

No one is pretending all is well, there is improvement needing made on every level, and as you correctly pointed out, conversation. It would help to ask questions than to fill in the blanks erroneously, for both sides.

ToT has seen an incredible amount of RP resultant of God or Godless interference, and often that breaks out into intrapersonal stories that continue in more private arcs. Some have lost limbs at the Boareskyr bridge. Some lost limbs from astrological events. Some went completely insane. Some went bald and deaf. One of my characters is attacked nightly by the god she abandoned with enough crippling attributes that I consistently struggle in motivation to play. Consequence RP takes a variety of forms in BGTSCC, some under the direction of staff, but you have to place some trust into staff to help guide those outcomes even when you aren't intimate with the knowledge of it. BGTSCC is a PW of storytelling and permanent silence to a character cuts short what could have been.