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Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:22 am
by DM Arkanis
mireigi wrote:Both of you just gained five notches of approval in my book for mentioning Dragon Age: Inquisition :)

What is the most memorable D&D experience you've had, both online and good old PnP?

Also, if you could be a fruit for just one day, which one would you choose to be, and why?
Most memorable? That's a tough one, there have been a lot of them but one that comes to mind is a campaign I ran in university that lasted for three years. A group of us would get together on a regular basis and I was nominated DM. We had a strange party: Drow, barbarian, a couple of elves, and a wemic at one point, all varying alignments. There was also a human priest of Oghma who ended up being a vampire and was "cured" by a priestess of Sune what had an extremely high CHA that everyone kept having to save vs. or be charmed and lose a point of INT. The characters all started at 1st and we were in the high 20's in terms of levels when we wrapped things up. A couple of players switched characters a couple of times - I did a solo adventure with one guy who went after a green dragon and got pasted really badly... We knew that school was ending and that we wouldn't get together for a while if ever, so we wrapped everything up in one long weekend at one of the guys parents cottage. Three days of binge playing saw the party slay the big boss monster - dracolich I believe, make an ally then enemy of a Drow Archmage, and then form a town in the Thunder Peaks and called it Haven - with a lot of help from a few hundred grateful Dwarven masons. I think I still have my campaign notes somewhere. Good times.

If I were a fruit for one day I would be a pineapple. A big, tall, fat, juicy pineapple. Why? because with eyes, a large orange nose, a bushy black unibrow and a solid thin line for a mouth I would look like Bert from Sesame Street. :D

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:20 pm
by Seymor
Hello Arkanis,

I have a complex issue for you to judge! I hope you are up for it. Before I start, I do not enforce this stuff in game at all. The way the game handles things is completely differently than what I think should work, according to DnD. Anybody who makes a spellcraft check against Robin casting spells identifies the spell as being cast because the game says so.

This came up in a discussion many times on IRC and I was wondering how you think the following works:

Robin casts spells that have (Silent Spell, Still Spell) as a descriptor.
This means that spells cast do not have a verbal or somatic component to them.
According to the online SRD, to spellcraft check a spell you need to see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm
15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.
(Does this mean you cannot counterspell such a spell, because you cannot identify the spell as it is being cast?)

Maddeningly, according to the online SRD, to spellcraft check a spell already in place
20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
(In which case why would anybody cast the spell detect magic to force a spellcraft check over many turns, when you can instantly do it with using spellcraft?)

Finally, another use of spellcraft to identify spells cast at you:
25 + spell level After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.

So, now that I have laid out the logic, here is how I think Robin casting a spell works:
Robin casts a spell, anybody who is looking at Robin can see that he is concentrating similar to how any caster concentrates while casting a spell, but he does not speak or move so noticing the concentration is not particularly obvious and does not last any longer than it takes to cast a spell.

Nobody is allowed a spellcraft check to identify the spell, even if you notice that Robin is concentrating. You can use counterspell against Robin, but it must be a dispel magic of some flavor. You cannot cast slow to counter haste for example.

If the spell has a projectile (fireball, ice darts) it is obvious that Robin has cast a spell (The fireball is already coming towards you) but paradoxically you must make a spellcraft check of 20 + spell level to actually identify the fireball as a... fireball.

Otherwise in order to identify the spell you must notice the spell.
If it affects Robin, you can identify the spells effect (Mirror Image, Haste, Spiderskin, spellcraft 20 + spell level) by "investigating" Robin in some way. Checking the spell effects take no action but you must be looking at Robin to "see" the spell effect.

If you are looking at Robin, and he casts a spell that targets something other than what you are looking at (Solipsism targeting somebody else, Gate cast behind you) you do not get to identify the spell until you look at the friend or are otherwise alerted to something being wrong (an angel poking you on the shoulder would be a hint).

If the spell targets a person and has a save, that person is entitled to a check to identify the spell (25 + spell level). This is automatic.
Now for the corner cases:
If Robin casts a spell on you that does not allow a save (Planar Binding, Greater, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Assay Resistance, Bigby's Forceful Hand):
You do not get to identify that the spell has been cast (Amazingly scary, and paradoxical; you have a hand all up in your grill and you can't even "detect" it).

If Robin casts invisibility, and you do not have see invisibility up:
You DO get to see that Robin has disappeared, but since you cannot "see" Robin you cannot identify the effect. Because of this Robin casting invisibility and teleport are indistinguishable.

If Robin casts invisibility, and you do have see invisibility up:
You must make a spellcraft check (20 + spell level) to see that Robin is invisible, otherwise (???'s)

If Robin casts Mass Eagle's Splendor, your allies see:
You must make a spellcraft check (20 + spell level) to see the other people are affected by Mass Eagle's Splendor (and you must look at them). Robin's allies cannot see that Mass Eagle's Splendor has been cast on themselves.

If Robin casts Haste, but does not move and you are not paying attention to Robin:
You do not see that Robin has cast Haste. When Robin moves, that is enough attention for people to be allowed a spellcraft check (20 + spell level) to see that Robin has haste cast on him.
Where do you think I have erred? What other oddities can you come up with? I eagerly await your response.

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:17 am
by DM Arkanis
Seymor wrote: Where do you think I have erred? What other oddities can you come up with? I eagerly await your response.
What a proverbial minefield... I called in for some help from another DM on this one. I always find that when there are questions about the game mechanics vs. how-it-works in PnP I need some guidance on how to break it down.

No somatic or verbal components doesn't create a spell that bypasses Spellcraft. Our game engine will continue to read them and IMHO it's unfair to other players who have invested points in Spellcraft and are knowledgeable in spells in general to be denied the opportunity to recognize something that could quite easily be their own handiwork. Still spell and Silent spell are meant to operate around the constrains of being Silenced and unable to move (Still) either through effects that cause those conditions or through circumstance.

Re: Player Names

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:30 pm
by stevebarracuda
But that begs the question: are Spellcraft checks actually actionable information IC, considering only DMs can enforce Skill Roles?

The Combat Log is OOC, is it not?

Re: Player Names

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:49 pm
by DM Narshe
stevebarracuda wrote:But that begs the question: are Spellcraft checks actually actionable information IC, considering only DMs can enforce Skill Roles?

The Combat Log is OOC, is it not?
Combat log values are OOC but actions are not.

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:39 pm
by stevebarracuda
Thank you for clearing up the values of the Combat Log, which are OOC, of course. It would be unrealistic—to say the least—for a Character to respond IC to the Combat Log with a "If only I could hit with 2 more points...then I'd overcome the hide of the Balor!"

But Spellcraft is a Skill, and it is a unique Skill in that—as Arkanis points out—the NWN2 engine makes an automatic Skill check against any Casting, be it Arcane, Divine or Invocation. That fact—and especially pertaining to Invocations—means that a Wizard, having never seen/heard/etc a Warlock in their "life," with a high enough Spellcraft investment, will get a Combat Log return stating they "know" the Invocation, they "know" the Walk Unseen invocation. Now how is a Wizard with not real life examples, to instantly know the type of invocation, or even Divine, spell cast near them...hell, the Engine works as such that you can be on the other side of a wall in certain areas, and still, the Engine will make a automatic Skill check.

So it seems, the Engine of is working against "reality," or whatever it is we attempt to RP, IC, in this gameworld. And with Spellcraft being a Skill, and the Server having the Rule that one a DM can enforce a Skill check:
...a player is not required to follow any Skill rolls unless a DM enforces it
Thus, when Wizard A "notices" a spell being cast by another Character, say Cleric B, does Cleric B have to accept that Wizard A "knows" he just cast Blood to Water? Because THAT could have a direct effect on how to further the interactions, the Role-play. Does Spellcraft checks count as Actions? As I've tried to illustrate above, certain actions have dire consequences for a Character.

As a note: I do remember the whole "how do you know what I just cast is evil?!?" conversation was had in the past, but the Search engine is not coming up with it (as it would be interesting, for sake of the discussion now, where that previous discussion ended...if it ever did).

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:38 am
by DM Narshe
This really isn't the right thread for these kinds of questions. Arkanis stated such before.

Rolls that the game engine supports itself can be considered IC. Things such as spellcraft (not to confuse with things that don't roll spellcraft but still show like they have), Spotting a hidden entity, Sleight of Hand, and other such things that the game engine controls the outcome of are fine.

It's when someone uses the auxiliary dice roller at the top toolbar that doesn't necessarily need to be honored by players unless a DM is around. There's quite a few reasons for that but we don't really need to go into them in this thread.

As for the Wizard, Cleric and Warlock thing (and this is very much my interpretation of it, not a full DM team ruling): Magic is magic. They all produce the same effects from different sources. It's the effects that are noticed. Whether the ripples on the pond come from wind, an insect or a tossed stone, can someone not see and understand the rippling water?
stevebarracuda wrote:Thank you for clearing up the values of the Combat Log, which are OOC, of course. It would be unrealistic—to say the least—for a Character to respond IC to the Combat Log with a "If only I could hit with 2 more points...then I'd overcome the hide of the Balor!"

But Spellcraft is a Skill, and it is a unique Skill in that—as Arkanis points out—the NWN2 engine makes an automatic Skill check against any Casting, be it Arcane, Divine or Invocation. That fact—and especially pertaining to Invocations—means that a Wizard, having never seen/heard/etc a Warlock in their "life," with a high enough Spellcraft investment, will get a Combat Log return stating they "know" the Invocation, they "know" the Walk Unseen invocation. Now how is a Wizard with not real life examples, to instantly know the type of invocation, or even Divine, spell cast near them...hell, the Engine works as such that you can be on the other side of a wall in certain areas, and still, the Engine will make a automatic Skill check.

So it seems, the Engine of is working against "reality," or whatever it is we attempt to RP, IC, in this gameworld. And with Spellcraft being a Skill, and the Server having the Rule that one a DM can enforce a Skill check:
...a player is not required to follow any Skill rolls unless a DM enforces it
Thus, when Wizard A "notices" a spell being cast by another Character, say Cleric B, does Cleric B have to accept that Wizard A "knows" he just cast Blood to Water? Because THAT could have a direct effect on how to further the interactions, the Role-play. Does Spellcraft checks count as Actions? As I've tried to illustrate above, certain actions have dire consequences for a Character.

As a note: I do remember the whole "how do you know what I just cast is evil?!?" conversation was had in the past, but the Search engine is not coming up with it (as it would be interesting, for sake of the discussion now, where that previous discussion ended...if it ever did).

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:18 pm
by stevebarracuda
DM Narshe wrote:This really isn't the right thread for these kinds of questions. Arkanis stated such before.
True. You could always split this question to a new Questions for DMs thread, if it is so bothersome to discuss, but it isn't Arkanis discussing it, who said he did not want to rule on issues in his thread.
DM Narshe wrote:Whether the ripples on the pond come from wind, an insect or a tossed stone, can someone not see and understand the rippling water?
True. But knowing a warlock summoning powers from the Hells versus a Cleric summoning necromatic divine gifts versus a mage opening a portal to another Plane...these all have consequences in context. If magic is magic and they all cast the same "ripples" from the Weave, at base, then...we lose the interesting aspect of distinction and peculiarities of Class.

Anyway, it is about enjoying the aspect of spellcasting within the game/Engine limits, and that seems to work overall. Too bad that something like Spellcraft is utilized by the engine is such a generic way, overriding actual knowledge through experience, instead, being a dumb mechanic.

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:25 am
by DM Arkanis
I think this short video pretty much sums up my feelings ATM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL6Ws4i07is

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:13 am
by DM Arkanis
Here is some interesting Goat Trivia!


Female goats are called 'does'. Male goats are called 'bucks'. Young goats are called 'kids.


Goats are bovines, members of the family bovidae which includes deer, cows, sheep and antelope.


The domestic goat has cloven hooves, a long beard on its chin, a short and upward-turned tail and horns that grow upward from the head instead of twisting to the sides like those of sheep. Their hair is straight with a woolly undercoat during winter.


A goats size is approximately 70 - 120 centimetres (28 - 48 inches) in height.


Goats weigh 45 - 54 kilograms (100 - 120 pounds).


Goats reach sexual maturity at 4 - 18 months.


A female goats gestation period lasts approximately 150 days; usually resulting in 1 - 3 offspring.


The life span of a goat is about 15 years.


The age of a goat can be determined by its teeth.


A goat can jump 5 feet high or more


Goats are ruminants which means they chew cud like cows and sheep and can eat about 5lbs of hay per day.


Most goats live in herds of about 5 - 20 members.


Goats have an efficient four-chambered stomach that allows them to survive on sparse vegetation. Their digestive process also allows them to eat large quantities of food quickly. This reduces foraging time during which they are exposed to predators.


Goats are generally milked using milking machines like the ones used to milk cows.


The most common domestic breeds are the Angora, Cashmere, French-Alpine, Nubian, Saanen and Toggenburg.


Goat habitats are varied and include mountain steppe, grasslands, and desert. Goats can thrive just about anywhere except the Antarctica which is too cold.


Goat population is roughly 600 million maintained worldwide (not including feral populations).


Goats are browsing animals - their diet Includes fresh or dried grasses, foliage of trees, shrubs, bushes, and various other plants. If permitted to graze an area, they will almost strip the land completely causing irreversible damage.


Around the world, more people drink goat milk than cow milk.


Goats were the first animal to be domesticated, according to many historians.


Before coins were used for money, goats were traded for silver, because they were so valuable.


The goat is among the cleanest of animals, and is a much more selective feeder than cows, sheep, pigs, chickens and even dogs. Goats do eat many different species of plants, but do not want to eat food that has been contaminated or that has been on the floor or the ground.


Goats are fussy eaters that take a lot of time to search out the best snacks. Goats will often stand on their hind legs to reach the best part of foliage that may be out of reach of sheep.


Coffee was first discovered when goat herders noticed the goats acting very energetic after nibbling on the coffee beans.


Goat Milk is alkaline and cow milk is acid. Goat milk is lower in cholesterol and higher in calcium, phosphorus and vitamins A.


Goats milk is naturally homogenized and digests very easily. The fat globules are smaller and do not clump in masses like cows milk. Goats milk is digested in less than twenty minutes. Cows milk can take almost a day to be digested.

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:50 pm
by TheKai
To add to the Goat trivia:

U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officers are nicknamed 'Goats' and fondly refer to the Chief's Mess as the 'Goat Locker' :)

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:54 pm
by DM Arkanis
William "Billy" Windsor I is a kashmere goat who served as a lance corporal in the 1st Battalion, the Royal Welsh, an infantry battalion of the British Army.[1] He served as a lance corporal from 2001 until 2009, except for a three-month period in 2006 when he was demoted to fusilier, after inappropriate behaviour during the Queen's Official Birthday celebrations while deployed on active duty with the battalion on Cyprus. He retired to Whipsnade Zoo in May 2009.

His young replacement is known as William Windsor II.

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:57 pm
by DM Arkanis
TheKai wrote:To add to the Goat trivia:

U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officers are nicknamed 'Goats' and fondly refer to the Chief's Mess as the 'Goat Locker' :)
In my experience, a goat rope is a 1.(slang) A confusing, disorganized situation often attributed to or marked by human error.
2.(slang) A convoluted issue that is contested by many parties.
3.A rodeo event in which competitors attempt to lasso a goat, usually for younger participants.

Closely associated with a Cluster F***... pardon the language.

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:59 pm
by DM Arkanis
"As part of the run-up to the Navy football game, the Corps of Cadets plays the Goat-Engineer game. First played in 1907, it is a game between the "Goats" (the bottom half of the senior (Firstie) class academically), and the "Engineers" (the top half). The game is played with full pads and helmets using eight-man football rules. The location has changed over the years, with recent venues being Shea Stadium, Michie Stadium, and Daly Field. Legend states that Army will beat Navy if the goats win, and the opposite if the engineers win. In recent years, female cadets have begun playing a flag football contest, so there are now two Goat-Engineer games, played back to back the same night."

Re: Ask Arkanis

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:07 pm
by DM Arkanis
"In every graduating class someone has to finish last. At West Point Military Academy that person has long been known as “the Goat.” In our own version of “Where Are They Now?” we interviewed James S. Robbins, author of “Last in Their Class: Custer, Pickett and the Goats of West Point” (Encounter Books) about the implications of being ranked dead last at West Point. The irony? Some of the Academy’s least distinguished cadets developed into the most famous and remarkable figures in American military history."