Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[Steve]

Shapechange and Polymorph stats are only valid if they are not dispellable on the Build. Not to forget to mention the form itself.

In building, the more powerful the form of Shapechange you go for, in adding Class feats/etc., the more likely the CL will be lower, and thus more susceptible to Dispels and Mord's. Nothing more lame that buffing your Uber Shape then getting deflated by an Epic Caster or Boss. LOL.

[Nachti]

If that philosophy is behind the removal of Monk AC, which is literally a sixth sense born out of intensive defensive training,

I think I read somewhere a DM statement that monk AC comes from mastering their own body and form.

+6 (Improved Mage Armor),
+4 (Shield Spell),
+5 (Shadow Shield),
+2 (Cat's Grace),
+1 (Reduce Person)
+1 (Haste)
+5 (Bladesinger dodge AC),
= +24 AC on top of whatever the shape itself gets.

Reduce Person doesnt stack with cats grace. Bladesingers AC only applies if a rapier or longsword is carried. No shapechange form will use one.

With spells and spellfocus transmutation you can get +22 AC.

You will also get +4 from Armor/shield.

Huh? Might be true for druid forms but not shapechange. Armor and Shield enchantments dont carry over.

[Sun Wukong]

Reduce Person doesnt stack with cats grace.

Reduce Person does give +2 dexterity that does not stack with the +4 dexterity from Cat's Grace, however, Reduce Person does also give the target +1 AB and +1 dodge AC alongside that -3 penalty to damage. Hence, the combination of Reduce Person and Cat's grace gives you +3 AC.

[Tsidkenu]

Will this functionality be added to the Disguise/Disguise Other line of spells as well? Would prove an amazing boon to Disguise RP if so!

What functionalities?

Well, if you're able to use Polymorph to change into another humanoid form, is it possible to copy-paste much of the same script to apply for the illusion spells Disguise & Disguise Other? Since Disguise/Disguise Other spells are not transmutations, they should provide absolutely no mechanical/stats or other benefits, simply an actual change of appearance (as opposed to the less-than-ideal system currently in place).

I just think it would be amazing to have a pop-up GUI menu, like with summons/polymorph, for when you cast Disguise/Disguise Other. A great variety of different race/gender combinations which would actually change the characters physical appearance to the selected illusion (akin to how a polymorph effect works). Disguise Other would work likewise on whatever you targeted, meaning evil folk could disguise their evil summons as something less KOS. Would really make for some great RP possibilities!

[Sun Wukong]

Soemthing like that would also require that those with spell effect such as true seeing, should be automatically informed of the real shape of things.

And mechanics wise, I think it would still be a polymoprh effect... so can you retain old stats/equipment after a pylomorph effect?

[Steve]

I'm assuming that QC and Staff are discussing/debating the Design Philosophy in private Forum, so I would like to add this thought to be taken there (piggybacking on something Tsid brought up):

Polymorph as RP device. One aspect of having all these Shapes/forms, besides the mechanical fighting options, is the possibility for RP, in terms of disguise. However, how does that really work if the Shape Clock is so very short?

Would it be possible to consider making Polymorph—which is not a powerful form in terms of this Server—get a 10/minute per CL duration, in order that a Character may spend a whole day in a Form in order to be "in disguise" long enough for some long term RP?

As well, I think the ability to polymorph and infiltrate an otherwise Hostile Area, is a bet great RP potential Avenue not yet installed...but could be, with the upcoming changes.

In short, usage of the awesome new forms to enhance non-mechanical gain RP! Sounds good, right?!?

[Nachti]

Soemthing like that would also require that those with spell effect such as true seeing, should be automatically informed of the real shape of things.

Valefort scripted trueseeing to include this.

And mechanics wise, I think it would still be a polymoprh effect... so can you retain old stats/equipment after a pylomorph effect?

I think it would be possible to use character's stats and transfer the enchantment properties over to the skin. The character appearance however will always change (no clothes etc).

Would it be possible to consider making Polymorph—which is not a powerful form in terms of this Server—get a 10/minute per CL duration, in order that a Character may spend a whole day in a Form in order to be "in disguise" long enough for some long term RP?

ye a good point.

Polymorph as RP device. One aspect of having all these Shapes/forms, besides the mechanical fighting options, is the possibility for RP, in terms of disguise. However, how does that really work if the Shape Clock is so very short?

Shapechange? The RP value of shapechange forms is pretty low. These creatures are powerful and feared the most time - a paladin orc might be accepted within the swordcoast's communities but a fire giant surely wont. This might be different for horned devil in the underdark but the RP is often like "Ohh whats that? Dont fear me, iam not what I look like, I can be your friend , lets grind".

If one really wants to pose as one of these creatures he can ask the DM during an event to shift them for longer. In my opinion shapechange is a combat spell.

[Steve]

Well, I'd like to add that QC and Staff consider reducing the new (improved?!?) statistics for Shapechange, in order to keep or better extend the duration.

Going from 1 minute / level to 1 round / level is drastic. CL 30 is 3 minutes...that means Shapechange is really only reliable for an immediate Boss Fight, not anything—DM Event or dungeon crawl—of length.

Having now to take up a single pathway for Shapechange extension which is 8 lvls of investment in a PrC(s), just for 6 minutes now instead of 30 before, still makes me wonder.

Call me crazy, but what I think is more useful to the Player and makes for a better game experience is Duration over Power.

Not to forget to mention that Core Books has Shapechange at 10 minutes per level!!!

[Nachti]

Its under discussion. But

- Gate lasts only 2 round/level, which I dont want to exceed - powerwise.

- You can always memorize 4-6 shapechange spells. Instead of using just one spell to clear an area for 30 minutes.

[aaron22]

I like poly as a low power and high rp spell while shape is the big hitting low rp spell.

[Nemni]

Its under discussion. But

- Gate lasts only 2 round/level, which I dont want to exceed - powerwise.

- You can always memorize 4-6 shapechange spells. Instead of using just one spell to clear an area for 30 minutes.

It has to be kept in perspective of the druid though. The druid should be master of changing form, certainly. But as a mage or shaman investing in 3 spell focus feats, 8 levels prc and fill all 9th level slots ? How many would want to do that? In comparison wildshape lasts 1 hour / level.

[Steve]

Its under discussion. But

- Gate lasts only 2 round/level, which I dont want to exceed - powerwise.

- You can always memorize 4-6 shapechange spells. Instead of using just one spell to clear an area for 30 minutes.

Is Shapechange currently OP? Is it currently OP compared to Gate? I guess if that has been the underlying thought of QC, then there was always an unspoken nerf waiting to be applied.

If you’re think not the Shapechange shouldn’t exceed Gate, yes, but casting Gate, the Caster is still free to launch X spells alongside the Gate summons—something not available to Shapechange.

And I do understand the change to disallow Summons + Shapechange, in this regard.

But in terms of lasting, even 2 rounds per CL is 6 minutes/ 12 minutes with Master of Form. Waaaaaaaay better than 1 round per CL!

[Nachti]

Shapechange right now is a joke. Giants have no AC, Horned Devil no damage and all have no AB. Rping them is a challenge that most dont do.

You have to cheese to get something useful out of it.

[Hawke]

Its under discussion. But

- Gate lasts only 2 round/level, which I dont want to exceed - powerwise.

- You can always memorize 4-6 shapechange spells. Instead of using just one spell to clear an area for 30 minutes.

It has to be kept in perspective of the druid though. The druid should be master of changing form, certainly. But as a mage or shaman investing in 3 spell focus feats, 8 levels prc and fill all 9th level slots ? How many would want to do that? In comparison wildshape lasts 1 hour / level.

Druid is superior in every way in their own way. This let's mages actually be useful using these spells.

Besides, druids can cast spells in every wildshape form.

[Sun Wukong]

Its under discussion. But

- Gate lasts only 2 round/level, which I dont want to exceed - powerwise.

- You can always memorize 4-6 shapechange spells. Instead of using just one spell to clear an area for 30 minutes.

A level 30 character does not have that many reasons to spend 30 minutes clearing an area. Most likely they have already acquired good enough or the best possible equipment and it is not like they can gain more levels. (For example: my shapeshifting arcanist needs no equipment.)

So let us start by looking at the 4th level spell called Polymorph Self. If that spell lasts 1 round per caster level, at caster level of 8, it will last 8 rounds. That is 48 seconds, and whether you are Wizard or Sorcerer, you are looking at 3-4 casts of it at most. Then let us not forget that our arcanist is unlikely to have more than a single attack per round. Thus we are looking at a total of 8 attacks done per cast. Are these new shapes so powerful that they can deal 40-120 points of damage in a regular hit? I have to ask this simply because 'CR8' mobs tend to have their hit points in the 40-120 range.

Now let us have a look at that level 18 character that has just learned Shapechange. With the duration set at 1 round per caster level, we can expect it to last for 1 minute and 48 seconds. This means that we are still facing the exact same problem as before.

So here is the question in a nutshell: Are these new shapes so powerful that you can wipe out groups of monsters with just a single cast - or - are these new shapes just a slight mechanical improvement over old shapes? I think the slight mechanical improvement is the more likely alternative here, thus a 'shapeshifter' will struggle to kill '1-3' mosters per slot spent on either Polymorph Self or Shapechange and that fact alone makes both Polymorph Self and Shapechange redundant spell choices. At level 8, they would be better off making use of Animate Dead. At level 18, they could just use Gate and perhaps go for the Thaumathurge/Dreadmaster PRC for that permanent 'cohort' - in addition to the swarm spells and what not else.

And once again, just because the current duration of Polymorph Self and Shapechange is 1 minute per caster level, it does not mean you get the full duration based on your caster level. You can be dispelled and you will need to rebuff or you could simply be using a spell combination that forces you to end the Polymorph Self or Shapechange prematurely. I'll go in slightly greater detail in a moment.

Shapechange right now is a joke. Giants have no AC, Horned Devil no damage and all have no AB.

Giants have no AC, but you can combine that flaw with things like Elemental Shield and enough DR to only take a slight amount of damage per hit. You have spells that provide 10, 20, or 30 points of DR, and it is enough to ensure that you will only take 1-10 damage per hit. Therefore, whoever hits you, gets automatically hit back for much more thanks to Elemental Shield.

As for the Horned Devil having no damage, well, Horned Devil comes with Poison Immunity. Therefore, you can first cast Cloudkill, then Shapechange into a Horned Devil, and just chill in the middle of the AoE effect while the constitution damage cripples your opponents.

Elemental Shield lasts for 1 round per 1 caster level.

Cloudkill lasts for 1 round per 2 caster levels.

Using either spell combination will end up eating those ninth level spell slots on Shapechange or even Polymorph Self, and hence there is no need to lower the spell duration. It is already short if you want to get the most out of 'shapeshifting' spells.

But, should you team up, then the longer duration is actually handy because you are not forced to rely on above spell combinations to win the day. But... If the spell durations are shortened to 1 round per caster level, why would anyone even bother casting Polymorph Self or Shapechange in the first place? The chances are that your team has already beaten down the lonely monster or two before you finish casting the spell, and that it will run out before you run into the next set of lonely monsters.

Oh, as for low AB, you could blame your low BAB for it.