Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Wow Great Answer!

I have one for you that some friends of mine have been discussing in character and out. We have been seeing a lot of divide on what Is the Paladin Code and Who can be a Paladin and Which codes they have to follow or whether or not their god's Dogma over-rides the code in terms of Forgotten Realms and this server. What can you tell us about that please?

Ark! Great to see you back in the saddle, so to speak!

I'm curious to hear about what your two favourite campaigns/events were - both as a DM and as a player! Of course, that's inclusive of all your experiences both in game and any tabletop you might have participated in. What happened that makes them so memorable? Was it an engaging campaign? The people you played with? The characters themselves?

Spill the beans!

That's the eternal moral quandary every paladin has, right? Good vs. Law. Doing what is in the best interest for others vs. (rigid?) adherence to their deity's dogma. Seems like a great RP hook to hang a whole bunch of character weaknesses on

So glad to be asked this one...

First, let me say that my reply is not in any way setting server policy on this one.
Just my opinion based on 37 yrs of playing D&D, reading lore and rule books and fantasy novels based in the FR; being a GenCon DM, and in speaking with various D&D guru's over the years. In no way is my answer exhaustive, or meant to be definitive - just my opinion. (For the sake of transparency you should also know that one of my main characters on BG is a lv 30, LG paladin of Tyr... )

Second, the game started with a basic set of rules that outlined how to make and level up a character, how to conduct combat and cast spells, and stats on various monsters and NPC's. There were modules that you could buy that laid out specifically who could play (character wise) where they would go, what they would find, and what the final outcome would be (assuming the DM didn't kill them all off.) This was great for a while, and as more people got involved in the game the more source books showed up; magazines were written (Dungeon, and Dragon magazines come to mind) and core rules were added and expanded upon. Without going through the entire chronology of evolution, I think that we can agree that the game changed from Basic to v5.0 between 1973 and today and that some of the changes clarified things, and some just added to the overall confusion. The bottom line though is that we follow the rules as established, generated, and applied either through the game software, or through role-playing.

Third, our server has evolved. Since its beginnings there have been many additions and changes not only to maps, but to guilds/factions, prestige classes, race types and variations, and other basic mechanisms of the game. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of variations for making a new character, and only the limits of your imagination for playing it. The evolution of play has naturally dragged the evolution of the game mechanics and the rules (grudgingly) behind it. Too many rules means that the DM team gets bogged down in adjudication; too few means that nearly anything goes. A balance is needed for both DM and player sanity, and server evolution (in my opinion) happens from time to time as the direction of play/lore/player will dictates; which is not a bad thing.

Fourth, the most basic tenet and rule at BGTSCC is that you must play your character sheet at all times. (q.v. this would be another good topic for discussion...)

There come times over the course of the evolution of the server therefore when there has been a discussion on a topic and there are very different and opposing views on interpretation (as an aside, if you are a Monty Python fan I would interject here, "Follow the gourd! No, follow the sandal!" here by way of explanation) that require some sort of clarification for the sake of us all being on the same page.

I read through DM Golem's thread on the Paladin Code and subsequent pages of replies that was posted back in 2015 and I do not wish to continue the discussion from that point because it branched off and went hither and yon as different players applied logic (in many cases) to try and find a variant or deviation from the rule book concerning, "what is a paladin?"

The definition from what I can find on the forums, for the purposes of playing any character you would like to call a paladin is as follows:

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

By definition, a "paladin" MUST therefore:

1. Be of Lawful Good alignment.
2. Never willingly commit an act that would be deemed evil (I will add, acts deemed by their deity to be evil)
3. Respect authority, i.e. rulers of the land/cities/countries (you don't have to work for them, just respect them)
4. Act with honour - their actions would be considered just and upright (if, at times, otherwise completely stupid)
5. They cannot act in an underhanded way (i.e. no poisons, stab your opponent with your lance instead)
6. Help those in need (this needs clarification)
7. Protect the innocent (presumes the paladin is in a position to judge between guilt and innocence and act as a judge to hand out any penalties.)

If your character deviates from any of the 7 above in any way, they are not, by definition, a "paladin."

OK before I get a chorus of replies and a full PM box with nasty notes yelling at me from those of you who play paladins differently, please let me elaborate:

If you create a new character as a paladin from lv, you have to be LG. The game won't let you choose otherwise.

There are 19 gods listed for you to choose from - all but 2 are NOT LG (Tyr and Torm) and choosing and of the gods on the list does not preclude you from being a paladin (as long as YOUR character is LG)
All 17 of the other gods are either Lawful or Good aligned only.
I read through the list of them, and there is nothing in their basic portfolio's that would preclude them from being a god who had paladin followers. (i.e. they intrinsically went against any of the seven things listed for the Code of Conduct above)

((OK the purists out there are now yelling at me so I've managed to alienate all of you))

So the question therefore is not WHO can become a paladin (because the game decides that based on alignment), but rather how you should PLAY your paladin. (I'd like to point out here that there is no absolute requirement for any character's alignment to be absolutely identical to their god's either, as long as the shift between the character's and deities alignments is not too great.)

So, back to the first four things I said at the top of this reply, specifically to points 2, 3, and 4.

You have to play by the rules.
Certain rules evolve, but the paladin code as outlined by DM Golem has not.
You have to play your character sheet.

Can you play a LG paladin of Chauntea? (sorry to pick on Chaunteans... really love you guys)
The answer is, yes.
Does your paladin have to abide by the code or lose her powers?
The answer is also, yes.
Can your paladin of Chauntea act in a chaotic manner?
No.
Can your paladin of Chauntea act in an immoral way?
No.
Can your paladin of Chauntea party-up and adventure with KNOWN evil characters?
No.

THAT'S the paladin code, not the Code of Chauntea . At no time can a player's interpretation of their god's portfolio in any way over-ride, deviate from, or otherwise compromise the Paladin Code if they want to stay a paladin. In my opinion, a DM observing a character act in a manner that is contrary to the Paladin Code should shift the player's alignment, and if the infraction is serious enough, report the player and request their paladin levels be stripped. To act in any way against the code is metagaming, unless it is part of your character development to RCR and no longer be a paladin.

OK that was heavy. Here is a lighter side, with a story:

My name is Sully, some call me "the Great All Knowing Sully" but I prefer just to tell fortunes in the market. I worship Savras (LN patron of fates, a diviner) and for a few gold pieces Savras can let me see into your future, and I can offer you advice. I pray every day. I go down to the orphanage with most of the money I make and buy the orphans food. When the local guard passes my little stall, I nod to them politely. I pay my taxes to the crown to keep the stall open. A man in black robes came into my stall one time and asked to be told his future. I got a bad feeling from him, and Savras told me his heart was black. I told him I could not accept his money and sent him away.

Sully does not use her powers for evil, nor does she consort with evil.
Sully respects authorities.
Sully helps those less fortunate than her.
Sully is LG and her god is LN, but that is OK.
Sully is a good example of a paladin who follows the code.

Could Sully be dishonest and tell fortunes to people that are not true to make more gold?
Sure, but she would lose her paladin powers.
Could Sully have taken the evil man's money, knowing he was evil, because she knew the orphans all needed new shoes and could have used the money?
Sure, but she would lose her paladin powers.

A player's interpretation of a god's dogma never over-rides the Paladin Code. I know that there sometimes is temptation to try and logic one's way through moral minefields to justify your character's actions -"but the end result was good" or "but that's the way my god does things" or, "yeah I know everyone in the party openly worships Bane but I partied up with them because there is great XP and loot" and I get that, heck we all like to be creative in our RP and sometimes we blur OOC and IC things when it comes to playing the game so that we can hang out with our friends.

The thing is, your character cannot use logic to try and bend or break the Code. If you are going to play a paladin, you have to follow the rules or lose your paladin status. Period.

That's my take on it folks.

Old Ark

LISA100595 wrote:Wow Great Answer!

I have one for you that some friends of mine have been discussing in character and out. We have been seeing a lot of divide on what Is the Paladin Code and Who can be a Paladin and Which codes they have to follow or whether or not their god's Dogma over-rides the code in terms of Forgotten Realms and this server. What can you tell us about that please?

Tsidkenu wrote:That's the eternal moral quandary every paladin has, right? Good vs. Law. Doing what is in the best interest for others vs. (rigid?) adherence to their deity's dogma. Seems like a great RP hook to hang a whole bunch of character weaknesses on

Couldn't agree more. Seventeen of the nineteen deities who have paladins are not LG. This means they favour either Law or Good in their alignment, and one would assume their paladin followers would as well. While the Paladin Code is specific about respecting rightful rulers (i.e. the law) it does not mean a LG paladin has to LIKE the laws (thinking of Darkhold here... LE) My take on this would be that a paladin could privately disagree with a law, but would never act in open sedation or rebellion.

With respect to weakness, you are entirely right. A paladin's greatest strength is their duty to their code. It is also their greatest weakness that can (and should be) exploited by evil characters - I've had many discussions on what evil aligned characters can do vis a vis getting a paladin stripped of their powers because they broke the code. Great observation.

Hidennka wrote:Ark! Great to see you back in the saddle, so to speak!

I'm curious to hear about what your two favourite campaigns/events were - both as a DM and as a player! Of course, that's inclusive of all your experiences both in game and any tabletop you might have participated in. What happened that makes them so memorable? Was it an engaging campaign? The people you played with? The characters themselves?

Spill the beans!

Gosh, only two, eh? That's a tough one.
Back in university I ran a campaign that lasted three years, and I played with a regular group of friends and sometimes had "guest" appearances from other people either interested in learning the game, or who were experienced players who wanted to join for a couple of sessions. We took characters from first level to the high twenties - think maybe 25th or 26th level was the highest, over this time and the character evolution was amazing. The campaign was set in the Thunder Peaks in the FR in a town I made up called "Haven." The party was based there and went too and from the town for their adventures. I had the players also roll up a set of evil characters which we played in different sessions just for a break sometimes. When the evil party got up to level 8, I brought them in as NPC's to the good aligned party's campaign and it blew the player's minds. I (as the DM) played the evil characters FROM the player's character sheets, and while no one ended up (permanently) dead the players had a much better appreciation of how to play both sets of toons. It was a lot of fun. There were several notable quotes from this three year adventure:

"Yeah man, we were 3rd level!"
"Evil will always win because good is stupid."
"The fifth degree!!!" <evil cackling>
"I'm allergic to dust" <said the wizard who accidentally sneezed while casting fireball>
"That's a very deep hole....aaaaaaahhhhhhh!"

What makes a good campaign memorable is, of course, the laughs you get when the RP is good and it clicks. The difference between PnP D&D and our game is that in person you can actually see the people who are RPing with and put some cerebral (physical) actions into things. As a DM I always gave bonus XP for great RP (still do) and when my friends really got into, and stayed in character the game was always better. The dwarf spoke with a Scottish accent; the two thieves who were brothers spoke in Cant with each other and not at all to the party. The Priest of Oghma was from the far east in Kara-Tur and of course had the according accent to go along with it and the player would often stand up and show me his martial arts/sword moves.

Those players are still some of my best friends today, and even though we all live in different cities we stay in touch via social media and visit each other when we can. We've talked about having a reunion weekend to play the game but so far we haven't managed it. I actually started playing NWN back in 2005-2006 when one of the guys from the old PnP game suggested that it was a way that we could still RP together even though we live 600km apart. I ended up moving from NWN1 to NWN2 and his wife had a couple of babies and he stopped playing. Still talk to him about the game from time to time though.

On line I have met some truly great players over the last ten or so years, even met a couple in person in real life - a bunch of us from an old server I was on planned a weekend in Vegas but it never happened. For me, the fun is in the imagination displayed in game and always trying to figure out how to get the monsters without them getting you first. As a player, when there is RP with my toon I try to always bring my A game, even if it means that I recognize that the other player really doesn't want to interact with my character at that time... Love our game and the people who play it so well.

Old Ark

Challenge.

Who re-discovered the book "The Leaves of One Night" and why was it cursed by the divine?

Hint: The book is of netherese origin and was lost for centuries. It was discovered some time before 1372 DR and during the time of the sundering books it played a major role in the events there.

Good insights Atlas.

The trick with playing any character who is LG is having to stick to your alignment credos. It is even more difficult with a paladin because of their code of ethics.

I read once that paladin's should really never get above about 8th level because they end up in situations where they HAVE to face some evil, often great evil, and they run in, sword drawn, god's name on their lips, and get smoked.

Similarly, I had a conversation with a friend about a priest of Talos (CE) who couldn't really help himself (ala Joker from Bat Man) and also should never get above about 8th level because he was so self destructive.

I think playing paladins, BG or PnP we as players have to incorporate a little interpretation of alignments with respect to our characters' personalities too.

q.v. please read the forum rules on paladins, the paladin code, and previous DM rulings concerning how to play a paladin. This thread and discussion is only for consideration, and general interest and in no way represents a DM ruling concerning palidins, alignments, or anything else - just my opinions.

Atlas wrote:

DM Arkanis wrote:3. Respect authority, i.e. rulers of the land/cities/countries (you don't have to work for them, just respect them)

With respect Arkanis,

What you have listed here is too vague and can be easily misinterpreted in a lawful neutral fashion.


To elaborate the Complete Paladin's Handbook elaborates on what kind of authority he must respect:


Every paladin must be lawful good. The moment he abandons the conditions of this alignment is the moment he stops being a paladin. At the heart of a lawful good alignment is the belief in a system of laws that promotes the welfare of all members of a society, ensures their safety, and guarantees justice. So long as the laws are just and applied fairly to all people, it doesn't matter to the paladin whether they originate from a democracy or a dictator.

Though all lawful good systems adhere to the same general principles, specific laws may be different. One society may allow a wife to have two husbands, another may enforce strict monogamy. Gambling may be tolerated in one system, forbidden in another. A paladin respects the laws of other lawful good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens. However, a paladin will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment.

A government may believe that unregulated gambling provides a harmless diversion, but a paladin may determine that the policy has resulted in devastating poverty and despair. In the paladin's mind, the government is guilty of a lawless act by promoting an exploitative and destructive enterprise. In response, the paladin may encourage citizens to refrain from gambling, or he may work to change the law. Particularly abhorrent practices, such as slavery and torture, may force the paladin to take direct action.

It doesn't matter if these practices are culturally acceptable or sanctioned by well-meaning officials. The paladin's sense of justice compels him to intervene and alleviate as much suffering as he can. Note, though, that time constraints, inadequate resources, and other commitments may limit his involvement. While a paladin might wish for a cultural revolution in a society that tolerates cannibalism, he may have to content himself with rescuing a few victims before circumstances force him to leave the area.


Therefore the Paladin is beholden by his god to obey [lawful good] rulers and authorities only. His deity will not disgrace him of his powers and status for going against bad orders from a neutral or chaotic or evil figure of authority.

The Paladin teaming up with the Robin Hood arch type to fight the evil Robber Baron is a very plausible scenario in a setting where the only law is unjustified and corrupt and by its very definition no real law at all but a crass from of order imposed on the weak by tyrants.

The Paladin would seek to draw his sword and face his enemies on the open field as opposed to the guerrilla tactics of a Chaotic Good Ranger, but they both want the same thing.



To elaborate further I would present a scenario pertaining to BGTSCC:

A Paladin could very well corner the Thayan Khazark or a member of the Zhentarim on the street in Baldur's Gate, draw his sword and issue his challenge and see how far he gets before society turns against him.

If the bad guy refuses to fight then the Paladin is under no obligation to withdraw and could further still beat him into submission and again see how far he gets in dragging that soldier of evil in chains to the nearest benevolent or lawful good authority or realm in which to prosecute him for very real crimes.

The realm of High Rider Lord Dhelt by the lore of the setting has no qualms in executing any and all members of the Zhentarim they capture or would not kill outright in battle.

The Paladin in very unlikely to succeed in such a scenario without an army to fight his way free of the city, but his noble god would not strip him of his divine powers and worth for such an act, and if slain he would stand on high with Torm having died a martyr, or be eternally honoured in the Hall of Tyr as a good and just Paladin.

Thrall wrote:Challenge.

Who re-discovered the book "The Leaves of One Night" and why was it cursed by the divine?

Hint: The book is of netherese origin and was lost for centuries. It was discovered some time before 1372 DR and during the time of the sundering books it played a major role in the events there.

DR 1373
"Eleasis 20 - Shadovar agents recover, "The Leaves of One Night," a Sharran text that could be used to summon the Shadowstorm, an apocalyptic event that could raise Shar above the other gods."

Is this the one you mean?

Arkanis why is there no lore around the Wizard tower in Neverwinter?

Jup. It just doesnt answer my questions .

Lockonnow wrote:Arkanis why is there no lore around the Wizard tower in Neverwinter?

Honestly, I have no idea why there would be no lore around the Wizard tower in Neverwinter. What are your thoughts about it?

Thrall wrote:Jup. It just doesnt answer my questions .

Sharran priestess Elyril Hraven

There.

Ithilan wrote:

Thrall wrote:Jup. It just doesnt answer my questions .

Sharran priestess Elyril Hraven

There.

lol! Great! I was IG last night and didn't have a chance to get into, "The Big Book of Facts" to find out. I believe the lore around the Sharrans really gets going around the Time of Trouble.

You guys love to stump me! To be honest, I have a lot of fun trying to find facts and figure things out too.

Old Ark

I have a two part question I thought I'd throw out there for all of you who have been pestering me about my new tattoo.

Yes, I have tattoos. Groo the Wanderer, Snoopy flying his doghouse, and a giant Chinese dragon. No, I won't show them to you.

The new one is an avenging angel, giant wings, two flaming swords one in each hand, coming out of the gates of heaven (which are on fire) and the scripture from Matthew 24: 27 is going to be written across the bottom of it in 1" high letters. I sat for about 15h and there is still work TBD.

OK

Question #1

1. What is the best moisturizer for your new tattoos, and do you continue to moisturize after it is healed?

Question #2

1. If you have tat's, what is your favourite and why? If you want a tat and don't have one, what would you get?

There are a number of classes/races of characters we can play IG that have tattoos for various reasons, and there are character selections that reflect this. We assume that it is either a) just for show (because it is cool), or b) that there is some background story behind it, i.e. spirit shaman, Red Wizard, etc. or c) both.

Interested to hear your answers.

Old biker-by-night Ark