Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[Hawke]

Soemthing like that would also require that those with spell effect such as true seeing, should be automatically informed of the real shape of things.

And mechanics wise, I think it would still be a polymoprh effect... so can you retain old stats/equipment after a pylomorph effect?

I know you are speaking of the magic spell of disguise other (why there cant be a mundane version...) So Just for clarification with True Seeing and disguising because it might just get brought up.

True Seeing only pierces through magical alterations to include shapechange/polymorph.

Normal physical disguises, as well as non magical stealth will never be seen from True Seeing.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm

Hidden: show

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

[Hawke]

If the spell durations are shortened to 1 round per caster level, why would anyone even bother casting Polymorph Self or Shapechange in the first place? The chances are that your team has already beaten down the lonely monster or two before you finish casting the spell, and that it will run out before you run into the next set of lonely monsters.

Honestly, this. Plus if changes are not made for bonus spell slots from items.

There are already a ton of negatives for the use shapechange.

No Summons (but Thaums and Spirit Shamans can have their cohorts, awesome)
No Spells to be cast. At level 30 that is 1 hour worth of "normal spell buffs". That also means, no haste (which is awesome).

You also cannot heal yourself, period. No using items, wands, epic spells etc.

Did I mention no heals?

[Nachti]

So let us start by looking at the 4th level spell called Polymorph Self. If that spell lasts 1 round per caster level, at caster level of 8, it will last 8 rounds. That is 48 seconds, and whether you are Wizard or Sorcerer, you are looking at 3-4 casts of it at most. Then let us not forget that our arcanist is unlikely to have more than a single attack per round. Thus we are looking at a total of 8 attacks done per cast. Are these new shapes so powerful that they can deal 40-120 points of damage in a regular hit? I have to ask this simply because 'CR8' mobs tend to have their hit points in the 40-120 range.

Polymorph duration will not be reduced. Currently its 1min/level and I think about raising it to 10min or 1 hour/level.

So here is the question in a nutshell: Are these new shapes so powerful that you can wipe out groups of monsters with just a single cast - or - are these new shapes just a slight mechanical improvement over old shapes?

They will become powerful enough to be worth being memorized.

I'd like to make transmutation school a worthful investion for any caster. Actually any school but my monthly time is limited.

And once again, just because the current duration of Polymorph Self and Shapechange is 1 minute per caster level, it does not mean you get the full duration based on your caster level. You can be dispelled and you will need to rebuff or you could simply be using a spell combination that forces you to end the Polymorph Self or Shapechange prematurely. I'll go in slightly greater detail in a moment.

Shapechange should be good but is not supposted to be a "no-brainer".

Once the transmutation spells are overhauled and I am in a good mood I continue with the Shifter PrC. A few ideas I have in mind for it:

- Shifter available to arcanes and divines.
- No spellcasting progression but stronger forms.
- Shifter Forms, Polymorph and Shapechange cast by a Shifter become supernatural effects and thus immune to dispels.
- Polymorph and Shapechange duration might change from CL to HD for Shifter.

Giants have no AC, but you can combine that flaw with things like Elemental Shield and enough DR to only take a slight amount of damage per hit. You have spells that provide 10, 20, or 30 points of DR, and it is enough to ensure that you will only take 1-10 damage per hit. Therefore, whoever hits you, gets automatically hit back for much more thanks to Elemental Shield.

Which forces you to end Shapechange earlier then expected. 1 min?

Though I see your point. That tactic might be better for a polymorph high CON form.

As for the Horned Devil having no damage, well, Horned Devil comes with Poison Immunity. Therefore, you can first cast Cloudkill, then Shapechange into a Horned Devil, and just chill in the middle of the AoE effect while the constitution damage cripples your opponents.

Elemental Shield lasts for 1 round per 1 caster level.

Cloudkill lasts for 1 round per 2 caster levels.

Using either spell combination will end up eating those ninth level spell slots on Shapechange or even Polymorph Self, and hence there is no need to lower the spell duration. It is already short if you want to get the most out of 'shapeshifting' spells.

Thats a tactic that doesnt require a 30min shapechange. Though if I had to do this - I would rather spend the slot on gate spell.

Honestly, this. Plus if changes are not made for bonus spell slots from items.

Will be fixed at update or shortly after. I stopped everything until the QC discussion has a consens (or my mood switches).

No Spells to be cast. At level 30 that is 1 hour worth of "normal spell buffs". That also means, no haste (which is awesome).

If you use gate you have to spend at least 5 rounds buffing. Shapechange does not have that. You can buff before casting the spell.

That also means, no haste (which is awesome).

Haste lasts 2 rounds/level so enough time to affect Shapechange. Beside that there might be forms with perma haste.

[Cenerae]

I have a worry that shapechange will either be far too strong or completely pointless after the changes, if it goes like this.

If the power of the forms are meant to be somewhere on par with a gish, then actual gishes could pick it up and make way better use of the spell than a normal caster could (owing to having better BAB and more feats and class abilities which would be relevant) - which doesn't sound like the intent, and I don't know if gishes really need a buff like this.

On the other hand, if the forms aren't going to be quite that strong, then there's very little appeal for anyone to bother using them still, especially if you're only going to be able to stay shifted for a couple of minutes. Gated summons can be buffed and would likely perform better in combat than a shapechanged caster - while the summoner gets to sit back and contribute with spells. A shapechanged caster has spend a bunch of spell slots to buff themselves and then eschew any other form of spellcasting, as well as item use. That'll render them incapable of responding effectively to a surprise (a bad string of RNG which might require use of a Heal potion, or the arrival of extra enemies you aren't able to deal with all at once).

Maybe it's a groundless worry, but it's a worry I have all the same.

[Steve]

For me, the addition of so many new shapes, both for Polymorph and Shapechage, is fantastic. FANTASTIC!!!

But my game play experience has been this (currently): Polymorph is not a good mechanics/battle choice, and with Shapechange, one can make, through buffing, a very powerful Horned Devil, Iron Golem or Nightshade. I have no problem with fighting against mobs in these 3 forms when buffed to the teeth. However. there are moments when I've taken some major damage and, without heals, I did die. But that was L2P stuff.

I still think Duration is more important that Power. I'll say it again: having played a Shapechange focused Character for a few months now, I'd rather have slightly weaker Shapes with long duration, than "powerful enough to be worth being memorized" but short lived.

Like they are now, actually!!!

[Hawke]

Ok Natchi, you are getting my hopes up.

The item spell slot has been a long standing issue of mine with both my druid and my wizard, and my drizard.

So, reading your responses, you are basically making shapechange into a gate spell in its utility.

Please just keep in mind that with Gate (which I never buff, except dropping haste on it, because I just dont need to buff it) the caster can still cast spells, attack, heal, charm, etc. I would hope that shapechange gets a few extra things to help compensate for the loss of "DPS" and utility.

No complaints here, heck, I haven't even seen the first run yet. But I am a huge supporter of polymorph/shapechange. I would be memorizing that spell all out if some changes were made, but keeping in mind there is no PrC being linked just yet, with the exception of Archmage.

[Nachti]

If the power of the forms are meant to be somewhere on par with a gish, then actual gishes could pick it up and make way better use of the spell than a normal caster could.

Yep. Thats why there was an idea to grant hierophant and arch mage a duration buff so gishes arent better.

Right now I favour another method: BAB based off casterlevel, so gishes and pure casters benefit in the same way. I think thats more in line with the pnp spirit of shapechange.

Ok Natchi, you are getting my hopes up.

I dont want to make these spells useless. I want to improve them.

[Steve]

Right now I favour another method: BAB based off casterlevel, so gishes and pure casters benefit in the same way. I think thats more in line with the pnp spirit of shapechange.

It is soooo much easier to build a Shapechange Master this way.

Spirit Shaman 11 / Dragonslayer 5 / Hospitaler 4 / HIerophant 10. 33 CL with Spellpower 3 and PsC. Far better than the Spirit Shaman 8 / Dragonslayer 10 / Hospitaler 4 / Hierophant 8 with only has BAB 26.

If you go the route of CL, I can a far more powerful Build. I like the idea!!!

[Nachti]

I never said it would be 1*CL = 1* BAB

[Steve]

I never said it would be 1*CL = 1* BAB

LOL. Why do I feel like I'm in a surreal moment of BGTSCC meets Las Vegas?!?!

You know...all this is doing is setting a major addiction to being able to make an UBER POWERBUILD out of whatever result comes out of all this public/private debate. I'm gonna win, dammit!!!

And don't listen to M3nt. Hi M3nt!!

[Nachti]

Ok iam evil. Before I go to bed here is the question that will doom you.

Will you level up to 17 and wait for the shifter class or will you level further and RCR?

[Steve]

Ha! I'll probably level up a build on assumptions, then start over again by Level 1. Cause I like the pain.

[Hawke]

I would have to start at level 1 with a fresh build.

[Sun Wukong]

I never said it would be 1*CL = 1* BAB

Would it be something like this:
Base BAB + (Caster level (max 30) / 3) = 'Polymorph BAB' (capped at 30)

With a function like above, our low BAB pure arcanist could get a BAB of 25. While the more gishy transmuter would end up at BAB of 30.

Or would it be something like this:
Base BAB + (Caster level (max 30) / 5) = 'Polymorph BAB' (capped at 30)

With a function like above, our low BAB pure arcanist could get BAB of 21+, which is enough to get that fifth attack per round. While the more gishy transmuter would end at BAB of 26+, which would be enough to get that sixth attack per round.

Divine casters like Spirit Shaman would be on par with gishy transmuters, BAB-wise.

Anyhow, I am not entirely sure about this BAB increasement thing, and I would be against it if it turns a non-gish transmuter into a better or equal melee character than a gishy transmuter. After all, if you can get the same or higher BAB with just some Sorcerer/Archmage/Arcane Scholar metamagic and spell control build - or even with that Sorcerer/Shadow Adept/Blood Magus/Arch Mage DC build - what would be the point of the PRC classes such as Eldritch Knight, Dragon Slayer, Bladesinger, etc?

Polymorph duration will not be reduced. Currently its 1min/level and I think about raising it to 10min or 1 hour/level.

Alright, but it does raise a question of how these new Polymorph Self forms compare to our current Shapechange forms. Are these new forms closer to old Polymorph Self or the old Shapechange forms? How about after applying the Greater Magic Weapon spell?

If these new forms are somewhat comparable to the current Shapechange forms, then I do not think the arcane transmuters will be negatively affected by the shorter Shapechange spell duration. If they team up, they can just use Polymorph Self and tag along as they already do with current Shapechange. It will eat some potential spell slots from Elemental Shield, etc, but I think it is a cost that would be livable. Not to mention that they could cast Polymorph Self as a quickened spell.



But that is this topic from the point of view of arcane transmuters.

Divine casters do not have access to Polymorph Self beyond Ranger's spell book. (Ranger Shifters should be possible too.)

Druids have their wildshape, and their spell casting in wildshape, and eventual Dragonshape and therefore they do not really have any real need to cast Shapechange.

Thus when it comes to Shapechange and divine casters, where else to look than Spirit Shamans and the earliest point they can gain access to their Shapechange spell at level 18.

Spirit Shamans are a medium BAB progression class, and if they start out with something like 16 strength they should be able to reach level 18 with relative ease. All they need to do is get some +3 or better equipment while they level, and buff up with Bull's Strength, Thorn Skin, Flame Weapon, while spells like Lesser Vigor, Vigor, and Regenerate provide enough healing to tank out the mobs on the server.

If they go for a wisdom based build, then they can get the Zen Archery feat at level 6 and make use of Shortbows and slings thereafter. They can summon things, and use their selection of 'no DC' offensive spells to spice things up.

If they are a charisma based Spirit Shaman/Blackguard or Cleric, well, it is a bit more annoying to level up but fundamentally 13+ base strength for Divine Shield is not that different to starting the game with 16+ strength. What stings most is how ninth level spells get pushed to level 21.

So all in all, it should be possible for a Spirit Shaman to be useful enough outside of the Shapechange spell.


Now, what remains is the Monk/Sacred Fist/Spirit Shaman builds. In stock NWN2, all Shapechange and Polymorph Self forms have their respective 'creature weapons' which are not counted as unarmed. Therefore, using the Shapechange or Polymorph Self spell actually drops the Sacred Fist's AB by -10. If a shape has no weapon, it would be nice if it would get +10 AB to negate that penalty, or something like that.

[Nachti]

Sacred Fists are not getting their damage penality removed. This was set by DMs.

what would be the point of the PRC classes such as Eldritch Knight, Dragon Slayer, Bladesinger, etc?

People have different opinions about this. Mine is, that gishes focus on the blend of casting with weaponary such as swords, rapiers, spears. In pnp shapeshift forms have a set BAB value and number of attacks based upon the form thus a gish has no benefit.