Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[Sun Wukong]

People have different opinions about this. Mine is, that gishes focus on the blend of casting with weaponary such as swords, rapiers, spears. In pnp shapeshift forms have a set BAB value and number of attacks based upon the form thus a gish has no benefit.

That doesn't sound like 3.5 D&D to me.

Alter self: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm
(You retain your current BAB.)

Polymorph: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm
(It is said to work like Alter Self, and makes no mention of not retaining your own BAB.)

Shapechange: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm
(It is said to work like Polymorph, and makes no mention of not retaining your own BAB.)

So is that previous statement based on some homebrewed rules or some gentleman's agreement?


Anyhow, speaking of Polymorph while retaining your own BAB... It makes Polymorph spell into some shapes less than stellar idea. For example you could become a Juvenile Blue Dragon (15 HD) and get 17 strength, 10 dexterity, and 15 constitution. No breath weapon because it is a supernatural ability. What is that, +3 AB?

Thus you really should become a Twelve-Headed Hydra (HD12) instead, and get 12 bites that do 2d8+6 damage each, oh and you get the following base stats: 23 strength, 12 dexterity, and 20 constitution. Even with low BAB Progression, you get enough attacks that some of them are bound to land.

[Nachti]

Its been a while since I researched dnd shifter for pnp sessions. I remember the number of attacks of a creature is based of its natural weapons not BAB. Unless it uses a weapon.

If BAB increases the Attack of it? Not sure, it might be based at HD instead.

[Steve]

Besides Haste and Flurry (greater) and Whirlwind Rage, what has ever determine APR, but BAB?!?

And other than an AoO?

[Hawke]

Yeah in PnP your BAB was replaced by the creature you became. 3.5 not 5th ed. or pathfinder.

[Steve]

Yeah in PnP your BAB was replaced by the creature you became. 3.5 not 5th ed. or pathfinder.

Which is something bizarrely mentioned in the NWN2 wiki for Wild Shape.

I guess that is one way to do it: have CL determine or unlock more powerful versions of the Shape (up to CL 20= 20 HD; up to CL 25 = 25 HD; up to CL 30 = 30 HD; up to CL 35 = 35 HD).

[Nachti]

Players Handbook II introduces the Polymorph Subschool on page 95 which has extended rules.

• The caster retains own alignment and personality.
• The caster retains own hitpoints.
• The caster is treated as having its normal hit dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD such as "Circle of Death, Cloudkill and so on.
• The caster retains ability to unterstand the languages it unterstands in its normal form.
• The caster retains ability to speak or whrite if the new form is capably of it.
• The caster uses the new form's BAB, saves and all other statistics derived from HD.
• The caster loses its class features.

So technically polymorphed druids cant cast spells, rogues cant benefit from sneak attack and gishes dont benefit from BAB or weapon focuses.

Though I do not want to make my work harder so I propably skip much of these things.

[Sun Wukong]

Its been a while since I researched dnd shifter for pnp sessions. I remember the number of attacks of a creature is based of its natural weapons not BAB. Unless it uses a weapon.

Yeah, primary natural weapon attacks get done at full bab, other natural weapon attacks get done at -5 AB, or at -2 if the creature has Multiattack feat. Hydra only has primary natural weapon attacks (bite) based on the amount of heads it has, so a lot of attacks done at full BAB.

Players Handbook II introduces the Polymorph Subschool on page 95 which has extended rules.

It also comes with this bit of text prior to the list you provided:

... Unless stated otherwise in the spell's description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an avarage member of the new form in place of its own except as follows: ...

And once again Alter Self spell states that you retain BAB in the description. Polymorph spell refers to Alter Self description and states what is different compared to it. Shapechange refers to Polymorph spell description and states what is different compared to it. There is a tendency with D&D source books to try and save print ink by referring to different parts of the book instead of reprinting the same text over and over again.

Thus, in PnP, you actually retain your BAB and sneak attack dice with Polymorph and Shapechange spells. Player's Handbook II has not changed this matter, it just provided a snippet of information that tocuhes other 'polymorph school' spells - or if players wish to create their own.

Though I do not want to make my work harder so I propably skip much of these things.

Most of them would not even be applicable due to spell descriptions, so no harm done by skipping them!

Getting sleepy... Arguing about D&D online... Somethings never change...

[Sun Wukong]

Which is something bizarrely mentioned in the NWN2 wiki for Wild Shape.

Okay, one more post: Alternate Form, Druid's Wildshape.

Druid retains his base attack bonus, as described under the Alternate Form and Druid's Wildshape part. He just gets to do creature's natural attacks, hence a level 4 druid could become a brown bear and do one claw attack as an attack action, or two claw attacks and a bite as full attack action.


But yeah... not going to see what the wiki states. Too tired.

[Steve]

On the Wiki, under the Stats chart, on of the points written is:

Base attack bonus changes depending on the new physical abilities

Anyway, PHB 3.5 lists these defining words on Shapechange...:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.
The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD).
Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.
You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.
You also gain the type of the new form (for example, dragon or magical beast) in place of your own.
The new form does not disorient you.
Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.
You can become just about anything you are familiar with.
You can change form once each round as a free action.
The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.
For example, you are in combat and assume the form of a will-o'-wisp.
When this form is no longer useful, you change into a stone golem and walk away.
When pursued, you change into a flea, which hides on a horse until it can hop off.
From there, you can become a dragon, an orc, or just about anything else you are familiar with.
If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
Focus: A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell.
(The focus melds into your new form when you change shape).

Polymorph defines Shapechange but with 15 HD cap, and as Monkey Man correctly states, Alter Self defines Polymorph:

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form (such as humanoid or magical beast). The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same.

I underlined what is relevant.

[Hawke]

On the Wiki, under the Stats chart, on of the points written is:

Base attack bonus changes depending on the new physical abilities

Anyway, PHB 3.5 lists these defining words on Shapechange...:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.
The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD).
Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.
You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.
You also gain the type of the new form (for example, dragon or magical beast) in place of your own.
The new form does not disorient you.
Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.
You can become just about anything you are familiar with.
You can change form once each round as a free action.
The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.
For example, you are in combat and assume the form of a will-o'-wisp.
When this form is no longer useful, you change into a stone golem and walk away.
When pursued, you change into a flea, which hides on a horse until it can hop off.
From there, you can become a dragon, an orc, or just about anything else you are familiar with.

This highlighted is what made shapechange so very awesome and a great utility spell and a fantastic combat spell. The only drawback (and balance reasons) was the HD of the creature was limited. But if you knew the creature, you could transform into something very awesome. Plus you could still cast spells if the creature had the ability to cast spells , i.e. speak, arms, fingers, etc. So a physically weak wizard could "plus up" during boss fights.

The issue with PnP and NWN2 is naturally.... the setting is completely different. The mage has to continually cast spells because the game focuses around solo gameplay. If it had party sized groups of 4-6 as a requirement, then the reduced time till the spell ends makes sense. Otherwise...

[Slunko]

I'f you're messing with Polymorph this much, It'd be nice to see 100% RCR so we can toss the spell as shamans in case it doesn't work as it should.

And the more important question here: We now as shamans often use wisdom items to be able to cast spells if DC focused.

What that means is we loose that item when shifting and thus loosing all spells till next rez. This can be worked around with Owl's insight (Which is another precious spell slot dedicated to using this shapechange deal). Shapechange also often costs us 2x 9th level slot instead of one, because we also loose the wisdom bonus Item we had equiped and one from race for aasimars, thus removing that bonus spell.
*edited there. My mistake. Point still stands, even if the typed post was a bit messy*


So with your proposed changes shapechange looses it's RP value seeing how you're reducing the duration so severely, but it will still cost us shamans all of our spells or 2x 9th level slot.

Please, if you're fiddling with it, grant us the 100% rcr so we can get rid of it, once it gets properly broken, OR keep in mind what I've just said and let the ability enhancing items and such work while in forms.

[Sun Wukong]

What that means is we loose that item when shifting and thus loosing all spells till next rez. This can be worked around with Owl's insight (Which is another precious spell slot dedicated to using this shapechange deal). Shapechange also often costs us 2x 9th level slot instead of one, because we also loose the charisma bonus Item we had equiped, thus removing that bonus spell.

Spirit Shamans get their bonus spells from wisdom and charisma determines the spell DCs. Drop of charisma should not do anything.

What is the race of your character if you have this problem?

[Nachti]

And the more important question here: We now as shamans often use wisdom items to be able to cast spells if DC focused.

What that means is we loose that item when shifting and thus loosing all spells till next rez. This can be worked around with Owl's insight (Which is another precious spell slot dedicated to using this shapechange deal). Shapechange also often costs us 2x 9th level slot instead of one, because we also loose the charisma bonus Item we had equiped, thus removing that bonus spell.

So with your proposed changes shapechange looses it's RP value seeing how you're reducing the duration so severely, but it will still cost us shamans all of our spells or 2x 9th level slot.

I'll take a look at it. I guess I will fix it by granting 2x spell slots of each level to the polymorph hide. That should do it.

By the way, the front page has been updated.

[Steve]

Alright, so the whole Master of Form part is gone for good?

I was wondering why Shapechange has no Elemental forms?

Cheers.

[Sun Wukong]

Augment Form
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Spellfocus Transmutation.
Specifics: The character becomes skilled with spells and abilities that allow him to assume another form. For the duration, the character’s base attack bonus becomes medium (unless its already higher) but cannot exceed the character’s HD.
Affected Spells and Abilities: Polymorph, Tenser’s Transformation, Shapechange, Spider Shape, Spider Form and Shifter’s Forms.

If you need to spend a feat to get this, and those Transmuation spell focus feats only grant you some extra +AC, then to me it looks like things are in a good place.

But how does the BAB actually change? I imagine a Sorcerer 20' would have 15 BAB. But would a 'Sorcerer 10/Arcane Scholar 10' have 14 BAB and a 'Sorcerer 10/Eldritch Knight 10' have 17 BAB with the above feat?

Oh, and does the Tenser's Transformation spell work with monk's AC, etc, and does it get the +1/+2/+4/+1 AC from Spell Focus Transmuation feats?


Edit: clarified numbers on my own post.