Pale master Summon greater undead question

[Laenor]

So, yeah, do factor the limitations of a wizard when considering the summon stats.

Wizards have no limitations.

Come on

Wizards shine in PvP (Well, anyone can shine in PvP, it's mostly who attacks first and if you're prepared or not)
In PvE, they are far from beeing the pack leader. (Nor are they the redheaded stepchilds)

[Laenor]

There's three way to play an epic wizard when you're "grinding" :

The idea is to party up.

Great idea. let's get bards, melee characters, arcane gishes, divine melee, dragon druids and FS to party up too.

Wait. Nothing has been done to achieve this. Well, except the nerf to regenerate

The game is not about "partying up", it's about having fun. Having fun in a party when you're in a group, and having fun solo when you're solo.

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is : The change does pretty much nothing to change the balance except to force a Wizard willing to use CGU to memorize an additional level 6 spell, three additional level 3 spells and an additional level 2 spells to achieve the same results that they used to get.

That change achieves nothing except lowering the spells available to a soloing wizard (Actually, I already memorized these spells, because CGU do die sometimes due to their low-ish HP and bad saves).

Hence why I find this to be a bad change.

[Simian]

Oh, don't those undead also have bit of innate damage reduction?

[Valefort]

They have 10 DR and 5 regen, which is why they're awesome.

[Simian]

And throw in 50% displacement from the arcane spell book.

[Laenor]

Elementals also have dr 10.
The advantage of the undead is that they get regen, and their model are smaller (IE : Less of a pain to have around....)

[breteas]

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is : The change does pretty much nothing to change the balance except to force a Wizard willing to use CGU to memorize an additional level 6 spell, three additional level 3 spells and an additional level 2 spells to achieve the same results that they used to get.

The point is, it is already unbalanced. Players want to make use of summons, while still able to load up their spell book with nothing but damage spells. Making zero effort to keep the summon alive.

PM summon is less powerful than CGU yeah, but if there is a balance issue, it is with CGU, not with the summon.

[Luna]

Laenor, what were you doing before we changed CGU to 1 min a level which was like what a month ago or so?
You know back when it was 1 round a level.

Did you just suffer? I'm confused because your making it sound like the sky is falling here.

[Salival]

I'm a palemaster. Been one since I started here 4 years ago. As it stands right now the summons. For palemaster rock. Now we have a tight lvl 15 that we can buff to be a lvl 22 stand in. Use to be we had a lvl 10 we made a 15. Oh and I've been a nerco this whole time and tried conjunction too. We had them buffs they are great as is. No more need...... ps: this comes from a power hungry ego inflated evil magi. Btw: vodka for all!

[ragnarok1983]

Vodkamancey!

*summons liquor from the crpyts*

Hmm... I could really go for a cask of Amontillado...

(badoomp-tish!)

[Miinstrel]

Vodkamancey!

*summons liquor from the crpyts*

Hmm... I could really go for a cask of Amontillado...

(badoomp-tish!)

Poe me a glass while you're at it!

(second rim shot)

[Akroma666]

Laenor, I of all people being one of the highest level and most devout necromancers was sad to see the CGU change. But the DM staff and the QC staff changed it because it was indeed a bit too good for comfort. I personally think just toning down the summoned HD mob was a better choice, but in the end the staff decided. This doesn't mean it still won't change in the future. I still want to work hard to get Rasael to help me do the dread necromancer class opening a whole wide array of necromancy potential.

[Laenor]

Laenor, what were you doing before we changed CGU to 1 min a level which was like what a month ago or so?
You know back when it was 1 round a level.

Did you just suffer? I'm confused because your making it sound like the sky is falling here.

I used to memorize 4x level 9 spells as extended Create Greater Undead, used all my level 3 spells, half my level 6 spells and 3 level 2 spells to get them buffed to be worthwhile. And yeah, that was indeed a pain. But it was that, or using giant painfully slow elementals as a necromancer

That change opened to me additional spells slots for other things.

If you're a wizard, you have to rely on summons to kill stuff unless you just want to go invis to kill the boss (Yay, so much fun !)

I'm a necromancer. I used undead.

Regarding the summons :
The Vampire may be too good at level 15-25 when facing CR15 creatures. But when you fight epic creatures, the strength of the vampire is just right.

Maybe the spell should just be slightly changed to have different summons at CL 15-25 and at CL26+.
CL 15-25 : Vampire Warrior Toned down (Less HD)
CL 26+ : Current Vampire Warrior.

The biggest problem with casters is that beside DCs and 1-2 epic spells, in epic levels, you do not get any additional ability, and the summons just end up getting worse and worse.
At best, epic levels will let you improve the damaging level 6+ spells... but since you'll be mostly using IGMS that deals its max damage at level 21, it basically won't matter much except for maybe empowered frost ray and maximized delayed blast fireball, if you're a ASoC.

Sure, at level 17, when you're using CGU / Create Monster IX, you'll be feeling pretty powerful due to how great these are when buffed.

At level 26+, on the other hand, things will have changed.
An AC 35 AB 35 hp 220 creature surely isn't the end all be all against the things you'll be facing.

What I mourn is not the fact that I have to use summon it twice pe rest. It's the fact that I'll be losing additional spells slots, and god are those are scarce at level 30, even for a pure INT wizard with several items that add level 1-4 spell slots and a +4 int item.

We're not gishes.

Having to use additional spells slots due to a nerf that will only affect pure arcane casters (gishes have enough spells to cast/buff it twice, same for clerics/FS) kinda sucks.

[Luna]

I used to memorize 4x level 9 spells as extended Create Greater Undead, used all my level 3 spells, half my level 6 spells and 3 level 2 spells to get them buffed to be worthwhile. And yeah, that was indeed a pain. But it was that, or using giant painfully slow elementals as a necromancer

Well there, at double duration at least hopefully you can swap back some of your level 9 spells vs having it the default OC setting of 1 round.

[Laenor]

Sure.
But if the change is intended because the summon is deemed too powerful, let me just say that this change isn't the right change.

The right change would be to have different summons at CL lower than 25 / at CL 26+, and a 1mn duration/CL

Edit.: This also applies to Gate and Summon Monster VII-VIII-IX.