Roleplay Experience

[DM Novus]

We should be rewarding roleplay more.

Yes, but rewarding Roleplay should not equate to gaining XP. Roleplay can and is rewarded in many different ways—actually, the reward is often a two-way street between Players and/or DMs.

Roleplay is best rewarded by having the result of the Roleplay manifest into in-game situations, experiences and sometimes Server-affecting actions.

[TheSpaniard]

We should be rewarding roleplay more.

Yes, but rewarding Roleplay should not equate to gaining XP. Roleplay can and is rewarded in many different ways—actually, the reward is often a two-way street between Players and/or DMs.

Roleplay is best rewarded by having the result of the Roleplay manifest into in-game situations, experiences and sometimes Server-affecting actions.

Exactly, role-play is fine. You don't need to pretty it up. It makes no sense, and it won't curb behavior at all. People that role-play will continue to do so, and those who don't role-play, will continue not to. So should the mechanical reward for role-playing increase?

I guess it could, but it wouldn't change the dynamic of the server. This is about attracting more people to the notion of role-play versus running in circles like a MMO. There are already positive motivators for both things, ie you gain experience from doing both. However, if you don't change the grinding aspect, then you will see little to no change, people will keep doing what they're comfortable with: running in circles with no RP.

Besides, it's also important to realize what your motivating people with . . . Is it truly a good idea to have a bunch of people role-playing because it gives them more experience than killing bandits? It's not just about increasing the number of role-players, but about increasing the quality of role-play. Creating such a flimsy incentive will do little to improve the role-play. Making it so people can not grind incessantly for experience is key, instead make experience work in very juicy bursts, and this will enact change much more powerfully. And, this incentive makes in-character sense, because the "grinders" aren't role-playing properly. They adventure with little rest, without role-playing. Changing the modus operandi of PvE will provide a grassroots improvement to role-play that a simple boost to role-play exp. can not ever hope to emulate.

[Passiflora]

Roleplay is best rewarded by having the result of the Roleplay manifest into in-game situations, experiences and sometimes Server-affecting actions.

I agree to this in a real life world filled with fantasy, where things that should happen would happen. The idea is true and pure.

But in the real world, the percentage of the playerbase who do not RP if there isn't a mechanical gain is very -huge-, and no one can deny it. What does it creates? An environnement where there's more people grinding than RPing.

Rewarding mechanically the roleplay would transfer a percentage of those who grind to get that 'next level' to roleplay to get that 'next level' instead. Which would result in new players joining the server and seeing more people RPing instead of running around in dungeons or from quest npcs to quest items to click on. It's a chain, and it'd create a better environement.


Also. Rewarding it mechanically via a change in script wouldn't add an insane amount of work for the DM team. Trying to reward -ALL- the RP via results though, is an insane amount of work(even though most of the RP should have results, depending on DM's availability). And yet, it wouldn't pull people to get that 'last level for today' to roleplaying instead of grinding.

[TheSpaniard]

Trying to reward -ALL- the RP via results though, is an insane amount of work(even though most of the RP should have results, depending on DM's availability).

That's the thing, you don't need DMs involved for there to be positive results for your RP. In fact, some of the best RP I've ever had on this server and others, were without a DM's involvement. In terms of the average day role-play, I don't see how this incentive helps. People who don't role-play aren't going to magically spout out amazing back stories for their characters because of this experience boost, they aren't going to put more thought into their concepts, and neither of these things will manifest. A better solution is to get people role-playing more on a consistent basis on any particular day, baby steps if you will, so they do something other than hours upon hours of "grinding." Or, at the very least, that they "grind" responsibly. . . Ie, with roleplay.

[Considerate_]

Adventuring XP is best awarded by a DM overseeing it too, being able to manipulate the situation and making it more interesting.

Unfortunately, DM's can't be everywhere all the time to oversee and award Adventure XP, to prevent it from becoming a tedious grind. Furthermore there's always the risk of favourtism which I know the Staff is actively seeking to avoid.

Both scenarios (Adventure and RP XP awarded by DMs), could pose some questions.

• How do DMs award RP behaviour in game?
• Based on what standards?
• Is it those with the most fluent language skills or is it the most imaginative players?
• Does this mean that if English isn't your primary language or if you're just not as imaginative in your RP as others, that you'll see less incentive to RP?

The same questions are valid if Adventure XP was only awarded by a DM.

• What builds would get the most DM attention?
• Is it those with the best builds that
• Would those with faster reflexes and keener eyes get more attention because of their skills?

Hence, we got a mechanical system that helps deal with these aspects. It's still the DMs who make all the essential functions of both Adventure and Role Play all the more interesting - and I don't see that changing, just because we tweak the already existing system

[Rasael]

I agree that roleplay is its own reward. No one is arguing that roleplaying isn't fun. But we should also consider this:

Recently I started a new character, a dwarven battlerager who likes to sing and drink, and I have actually gathered quite a few poems and songs he could sing in taverns. But what have I've been doing recently? Grinding dungeons for Exps and Loots. Not for too long mind you - but the actual role-playing has not played a very large part. I want those Battlerager levels.

And let us not forget about characters that seem very awkward to me. Should I really give them a chance? Or would I rather go to grind a dungeons and get something after the hour spent? (Why should I bother to roleplay with that person, if I can earn more rewards by not investing my time that way?)

Because I actually know a lot examples like this, where the server's mechanics force you to go grind or "hunt" where the actual roleplay doesn't really support such an action.

And I mean seriously: Is it a coincidence that level 19 characters happen to be hunting in a zone where they get highest rate of XP?? Ofcourse not! Its an entirely out of character reason to go hunting (grinding) in that area.

The suggestion is to alleviate this push we are giving people to go grinding. By giving them a choice between grinding and hunting, or simply roleplaying socially. We're not even talking about taking XP away from people who are grinding. We're talking about a few simple tweaks to stop discouraging or interrupting roleplay in favour of going grinding.

Right now, you can't level a character by just using roleplay XP. Its completely unviable compared with the gains you get when grinding. So you almost have to grind if you want to develop your characters. Character development is a part of the fun of D&D, and by extension NWN2. Roleplaying is its own reward, sure, but does it have come at the cost other aspects of D&D gameplay? Shouldn't we encourage roleplay?

[TheSpaniard]

I agree that roleplay is its own reward. No one is arguing that roleplaying isn't fun. But we should also consider this:

Recently I started a new character, a dwarven battlerager who likes to sing and drink, and I have actually gathered quite a few poems and songs he could sing in taverns. But what have I've been doing recently? Grinding dungeons for Exps and Loots. Not for too long mind you - but the actual role-playing has not played a very large part. I want those Battlerager levels.

And let us not forget about characters that seem very awkward to me. Should I really give them a chance? Or would I rather go to grind a dungeons and get something after the hour spent?

Because I actually know a lot examples like this, where the server's mechanics force to go grind or "hunt" where the actual roleplay doesn't really support such an action.

And I mean seriously: Is it a coincidence that level 19 characters happen to be hunting in a zone where they get highest rate of XP?? Ofcourse not! Its an entirely out of character reason to go hunting (grinding) in that area.

The suggestion is to alleviate this push we are giving people to go grinding. By giving them a choice between grinding and hunting, or simply roleplaying socially. We're not even talking about taking XP away from people who are grinding.

Right now, you can't level a character by just using roleplay XP. Its completely unviable compared with grinding. So you have to grind if you want to develop your characters. Which is a part of the fun of D&D, and by extension NWN2. Roleplaying is its own reward, sure, but does it have come at the cost other aspects of D&D gameplay?

Yes, if you talk all day, you shouldn't be able to beat a goblin in armed combat. That's a consequence of you role-playing someone with little actual combat experience (all the training in the world doesn't substitute actual combat). You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too.

On the other hand, a more viable solution, is to limit the amount of "Grinding" one can do per day. This can be done while still keeping the speed of leveling the same by diminishing returns for each hour you do PvE ( this is just an example, there are other ways to keep the leveling speed the same, while stopping incessant PvE ). With this different mechanic, non-MMO style of PvE, people are forced to role-play since they can't spend their entire time on the server grinding. That way you will attract more quality role-players, and draw out some talent from those who are used to the MMO mindset.

[Rasael]

Yes, if you talk all day, you shouldn't be able to beat a goblin in armed combat. That's a consequence of you role-playing someone with little actual combat experience (all the training in the world doesn't substitute actual combat). You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too.

I disagree, because your example only holds true for very combat oriented skills. And even then it is still a question of whether or not you actually need to "kill" to get those skills. I would argue most professional martial artists and soldiers haven't actually killed other people.

But in another vein, a wizard shouldn't level up from killing things. His class is about study, and precisely the kind of things you don't need to go into combat for.

And then the same is true for Rogues ofcourse, they don't learn to pick pocket or sneak, or lay down traps, by killing things. You learn these things by doing them and training them.

So if we accept that "killing" is an abstraction for learning these things, why should we not also accept that talking can be such an abstraction? Who's to say a character doesn't spend his day training such things, and then only talks when the player plays him?

On the other hand, a more viable solution, is to limit the amount of "Grinding" one can do per day. This can be done while still keeping the speed of leveling the same by diminishing returns for each hour you doe PvE (just an example). With this different mechanic, non-MMO style of PvE, people are forced to role-play since they can't spend their entire time on the server grinding. That way you will attract more quality role-players, and draw out some talent from those who are used to the MMO mindset.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but I think this would require a substantial redesign. So it would be a long term project. The point of this topic is to look at things we can do short term to improve the server and roleplaying experience. Or at least, that was my intent when I first posted it, it might not show clearly.

I encourage you to open a topic and further discuss these thoughts though. They deserve contemplation, and might lead to a long term perspective on what the XP system should ideally be like. (And why the current system is not ideal in that case)

If we can come up with a thoroughly considered view, that would be strongly taken in consideration as a way to improve the XP system. It would be a community project.

[Passiflora]

On the other hand, a more viable solution, is to limit the amount of "Grinding" one can do per day.

This is a nerf, though, and it is never welcomed happily. Giving more reasons to go roleplaying would be welcomed, though.

Yes, if you talk all day, you shouldn't be able to beat a goblin in armed combat. That's a consequence of you role-playing someone with little actual combat experience (all the training in the world doesn't substitute actual combat). You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too.

Then, one shouldn't be able to raise the skill Diplomacy by killing a goblin and leveling either.

Hope you see where I'm going with this.

It's pretty simple though. Here, a little mental image..

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We can imagine a fighter training his skill when we're not there. We can imagine a wizard studying spells when we're not there.

We can also imagine a fighter roleplaying / getting into player-driven plots when we're not there, or a wizard.

But what matters is what we see upon logging in, what a new player sees upon logging in. Is it people roleplaying, or people grinding?

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[Considerate_]

Maybe we should turn the questions upside down.

Why do we award people for grinding/adventuring? Is it because it's

• Fun
• We want people to grind more
• It makes levelling a slow process
• [insert other reason here, and post it down below]

Personally, I think it's fun to role play. I don't mind that role playing is a difficult way to level, compared to adventuring, but right now it's unseemly impossible to level this way.



I've played Tamara for 3½ year (not every day obviously, and had my share of breaks ), but I don't think it's unreasonable to say I've played her actively for a years time. She gains level purely by RP XP and DM awards for RP.

I've played my combat orientated combat character Janice, for less than 1½ month.

They're both the same level now... and I haven't even played Janice regularly for those 1½ month. I'm not asking that RP XP get's that fast at giving experience.

But surely a boast could be argued? And the way Rasael is suggesting it, it can be done without creating an unreasonable advantage to either side. RP'ers will get RP XP a little faster. Grinder's will still be able to out-XP RP'ers by grinding, not to mentioning getting gold and loot to boot.

[DM Novus]

But in the real world, the percentage of the playerbase who do not RP if there isn't a mechanical gain is very -huge-, and no one can deny it.

The environment that is trying to be created and managed here at BGTSCC, is one that is character level independent. The current paradigm is to keep the leveling progress slow, for all PCs, so that the path to level 30 is an earned path, filled with moments that can only be experienced because Players are playing their Character Sheets, and each sheet must at some point in time say Level 1. Then Level 2, 3, 4...etc..

If Players come to BGTSCC and will not RP because there is no reward...well, I have nothing but a sour feeling from thinking that. If Players only have "fun" on this Server when being rewarded by a automatic script—be it Combat oriented or Chat oriented—then how I see Roleplay is fundamentally different to the reality of this Server...and it questions a whole realm of reasons why I game here.

It implies that BGTSCC exists in a state where Players just "fake it," or are dishonest with their Roleplay. And at it's worst, it makes it that nothing is given or manifested by Players unless they think there is a return. So essentially, there is no "gift" to others, behind being a Roleplayer. And immersing yourself and your Player-friends into a fantasy created world, self-created world, where you can push forward a unique, shared story that, at the end of the day, is YOUR creation manifested and, here it comes, the actual real reward: community.

[Rasael]

It implies that BGTSCC exists in a state where Players just "fake it," or are dishonest with their Roleplay. And at it's worst, it makes it that nothing is given or manifested by Players unless they think there is a return. So essentially, there is no "gift" to others, behind being a Roleplayer. And immersing yourself and your Player-friends into a fantasy created world, self-created world, where you can push forward a unique, shared story that, at the end of the day, is YOUR creation manifested and, here it comes, the actual real reward: community.

I don't think that's the perspective we're trying to convey. What we want to convey is that these are the game mechanics, and that by necessity the roleplay has to take place within the framework of these mechanics. And that these are mechanics which guide people to grind currently. (which we justify with our imagination, because its a mechanical limit)

Roleplay is often level independent. But this changes if it takes you around two years to progress your character via roleplay (see Tamina's post, but I've also experienced this myself), when grinding would enable you to progress into a different stage of roleplay much more quickly. What I mean here is that roleplay is affected by the abilities a character has, and grows to have. You are practically robbed of this if you just RP without grinding. This is the "play your character sheet" rule to me. (so: you have to grind)

The grinding is currently a means to an end, a tool, which enables you to reach a different phase in your character's development. Its not fun to stagnate, that is what we people are saying from my perspective.

And there is only so much the DM team can realistically do to help in this case, because they are only people. And from my view, they should be used sparingly - and not at all when a mechanical solution can suffice to avoid giving them more work. I like the DM's throwing events and having fun with the players. In fact, I'd love to do that myself at times. And I don't like DM's needing to award RP XP, or to act as server police.

[Considerate_]

If Players come to BGTSCC and will not RP because there is no reward...well, I have nothing but a sour feeling from thinking that.

Could we try and turn that around, and say if players come to BGTSCC and will not grind because there's not reward... what then?

Why are we promoting and giving incentive for others to grind, but downplaying the same for Role Play.

Human psychology 101, humans like incentives/rewards and respond positively to them. If you give incentives/rewards for grinding then you'll get more of that. If you give incentives for RPing, then you'll get more of that.

Personally, I'd prefer if all incentives were given out by hand by DM's, but failing that, I'll agree that a script/mechanical function serves the same function (although not just as well).

[TheSpaniard]

Human psychology 101, humans like incentives/rewards and respond positively to them. If you give incentives/rewards for grinding then you'll get more of that. If you give incentives for RPing, then you'll get more of that.

There are already rewards for role-playing, you do get experience for doing it. Getting experience for role-play is not the only motivator, nor is it even relevant.The problem is rooted deeply, so I feel there is no silver bullet.

That being said, increasing role-play experience will do nothing to help bring meaningful role-play. It does nothing to address the problem of the MMO mentality. A problem, I feel, that can only be addressed if you look at both leveling system and the spawns themselves. There is no silver bullet, but increasing role-play experience is a completely different issue, there are already many positive motivators, as Novus has stated. And anyone that is brought to role-play solely for the experience , won't bring forth meaningful role-play because it shouldn't be about the exp. Anyone that already role-plays won't benefit from this, because all they get is slightly higher leveling, which doesn't correlate to an improvement of role-play. In fact, most of low level role-play is really fun, and completely believable that you would be stuck at level 15 for 3 years. Actually, that's more believable than sky-rocketing to level 30. SO really, these complaints are actually describing what's endearing and interesting about role-playing a character properly, and not spending all your time "grinding".


So again, I don't understand the nature of this proposal, and I feel if you were to improve the role-play on this server, there's more meaningful change to enact. If you don't like the current power paradigm, where might means right, then don't buy into it.

On a personal note, if we're going to speaking about improving role-play, I feel you should look at the main culprit of diluting it on this server: the spawning system for mobs and PvE.

[Simian]

I kind of liked the system Sigil had, or still has. When you talked, you filled up the RP pool which you emptied by fighting foes. This way monsters could grant double their regular experience points until the role-playing pool was depleted. The ssues I had with the system was that it hardly ever triggered for me because I kept my character too far away, and that it also leaned towards quantity over quality.



Well, anyhow, if you think you can get people inside the inns and taverns, go for it.