Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Reckeo wrote:

Incarnate wrote: I agree, having spell component pouches for each school of magic would make a lot of sense. Which also means that if some one were to find a spell pouch, it might actually be worth a lot. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to have various types of places these pouches could be replenished slightly through gathering.

Interchangable spellbooks would also be a very nice feature if possible, as many wizards/mages actually often end up creating many spell books throughout their time as a mage/wizard, and these spell books are known to very often be very valuable.

I think if a mere portion of some of our suggestions were properly implemented, we would see a change in the amount of people who play Wizards because 'power' vs play a Wizard because of 'RP'.

Wish we could get some feedback on how to make these changes feasible, if they are.

I'd say not just wizards, but basically any spellcaster, their spell pouchs would just be more universal in relation to their "art" as they don't have a particular school of magic. I think they're very feasible, more a question of how it will impact play and actual game balance. Personally, I'd like to see a change towards what benefits rp and immersion, rather than what suits casual players, as this is an rp server, and as such I really think its important for the integrity of rp and immersion.

does anyone else see that we have here a thread of what... 6 pages? that essentially wants to place a mechanical obstacle to represent something that should(?) be RPed by the players, but is not. and there is a good discussion going both directions. (steve did not propose anything, but it has spun into ideas for proposals.)

and in a separate thread we have a pile of resistance for the admin placing a mechanical restriction on players because they have shown the inability to RP in a certain manner.

guess the difference is one is active and the other is "proposed".

just thought it funny.

sorry... continue...

aaron22 wrote:does anyone else see that we have here a thread of what... 6 pages? that essentially wants to place a mechanical obstacle to represent something that should(?) be RPed by the players, but is not. and there is a good discussion going both directions. (steve did not propose anything, but it has spun into ideas for proposals.)

and in a separate thread we have a pile of resistance for the admin placing a mechanical restriction on players because they have shown the inability to RP in a certain manner.

guess the difference is one is active and the other is "proposed".

just thought it funny.

sorry... continue...

That is a completely different subject.

IF only it was that simple, apparently its not just something that should be rp'ed, mechanics need to reflect this, which they don't. People being able to regain spells on the fly in a matter of only 5 seconds, even with the time in place it still means that players can quite trivially throw spells around, without real purpose, not only that, it seriously offsets an economic balance with what some could actually make a good business around.

If they're not supposed to play with it without or with too few restrictions, then maybe they shouldn't have them in such a way where they can freely exploit/improperly/incorrectly use it.

So... now we're discussing the idea of adding gold cost to spellcasters? How much pain do you folks want to inflict on yourselves in the name of "good RP"?
You can't roleplay using spell reagants without a mechanical effect, like loss of gold?



There's a reason that NWN2 (and 1, as well) never implemented such a thing. No one likes being broke, no matter how dedicated to RP you are. As was previously mentioned, if you think it's so great, go try a game that has it, like Ultima Online.

samb123 wrote:So... now we're discussing the idea of adding gold cost to spellcasters? How much pain do you folks want to inflict on yourselves in the name of "good RP"?
You can't roleplay using spell reagants without a mechanical effect, like loss of gold?

There's a reason that NWN2 (and 1, as well) never implemented such a thing. No one likes being broke, no matter how dedicated to RP you are. As was previously mentioned, if you think it's so great, go try a game that has it, like Ultima Online.

I don't think you realize how much it actually can hurt roleplay and immersion.
Also, if you had read that its about finding a solution that actually emphasizes on roleplay and immersion, which would be enforced mechanically. Like for instance through a spell component pouch. Apparently, its necessary to have something that mechanically reflects how magic actually is in Faerûn, what it means to be play a spellcaster. Because being a spellcaster isn't just being a matter of being an individual with a nice set of powers - but thats basically how the system portrays it, and its obvious that many treat it as such. Furthermore its quite reasonable that there is a cost associated with casting spells. Also, implementation of what Reckeo and I discussed could lead to some very good rp that actually touches base with what the OP seeks.

The initial part about the gold cost, was a more simplified way of solving it, so I do think its something that generally should be handled mechanically because obviously giving people the option to roleplay it without enforcing it will lead to it getting exploited by the majority - either because they don't know they're supposed to, that they're really don't care about what they're supposed to, or other various reasons.

That it can be so freely used leads to serious immersion and rp breaking issues. Apparently, I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

Also, if people, don't like to be a broke spellcaster then perhaps they should begin to employ their spells more wisely, use them when it truly matters and not be so frivilous about it. Perhaps, they should consider selling their services other folk who could be in the need of it.

Incarnate wrote:

samb123 wrote:So... now we're discussing the idea of adding gold cost to spellcasters? How much pain do you folks want to inflict on yourselves in the name of "good RP"?
You can't roleplay using spell reagants without a mechanical effect, like loss of gold?

There's a reason that NWN2 (and 1, as well) never implemented such a thing. No one likes being broke, no matter how dedicated to RP you are. As was previously mentioned, if you think it's so great, go try a game that has it, like Ultima Online.

I don't think you realize how much it actually can hurt roleplay and immersion.

I don't think you realize how annoying it is to be basically be told, "Because no one else will actually roleplay using components and such, we should force people to suffer a mechanical effect".


Just because you feel that folks don't sit there and emote that they're using spell components often enough - or at all - (which somehow ruins your immersion), that doesn't mean we should penalize the whole server. I've been playing D&D for years. At best, spell components just make it painful for spellcasters, and actually harms their roleplay, at worst, because they can't actually cast the spell they would cast normally.
"Oh, yeah... I'd normally cast that spell, but I ran out of components! Everyone wait here while I run off to the magic store..."
You want to harm immersion? That's how you do it.

Your gold suggestion just causes folks to have to spend gold to be spellcasters, which frankly is going to harm anyone who casts magic for no other reason than that you think folks should roleplay better.

samb123 wrote:

Incarnate wrote:

samb123 wrote:So... now we're discussing the idea of adding gold cost to spellcasters? How much pain do you folks want to inflict on yourselves in the name of "good RP"?
You can't roleplay using spell reagants without a mechanical effect, like loss of gold?

There's a reason that NWN2 (and 1, as well) never implemented such a thing. No one likes being broke, no matter how dedicated to RP you are. As was previously mentioned, if you think it's so great, go try a game that has it, like Ultima Online.

I don't think you realize how much it actually can hurt roleplay and immersion.

I don't think you realize how annoying it is to be basically be told, "Because no one else will actually roleplay using components and such, we should force people to suffer a mechanical effect".

Just because you feel that folks don't sit there and emote that they're using spell components often enough - or at all - (which somehow ruins your immersion), that doesn't mean we should penalize the whole server. I've been playing D&D for years. At best, spell components just make it painful for spellcasters, and actually harms their roleplay, at worst, because they can't actually cast the spell they would cast normally.

Your gold suggestion just causes folks to have to spend gold to be spellcasters, which frankly is going to harm anyone who casts magic for no other reason than that you think folks should roleplay better.

Personally, I think there should be expenses to be had when casting spells, like it would in the living breathing world of the Forgotten Realms. If some think it leads them be broke, then perhaps they're going the wrong way about being a spellcaster, perhaps they should consider selling their magical services to increase their amount of coin.

You know I'm not even on about people not emoting they're using this and that when casting spells, because quite frankly there isn't for the most of time for it. Whether they emote using spell components or not, they can still use their spells quite frivilously, without any sort of repercussions. Even if they do emote it, they don't actually have any sort of expenses when casting the spells, only with a few exceptions where they would. In my opinion, this is what makes it possible for people to use magic so frivilously, my point about it hurting rp is not in relation to them not emoting using spell components, but the fact that magic can be so easily and quite frivilously accessed, which makes magic seem like its something it isn't.

samb123 wrote:"Oh, yeah... I'd normally cast that spell, but I ran out of components! Everyone wait here while I run off to the magic store...
"You want to harm immersion? That's how you do it.

No, that doesn't harm immersion at all, in fact that would actually strengthen it. You think that because people then have to sit around and wait then that breaks immersion? By they way, if what was discussed was implemented, then it would be possible for spellcasters to go gather components in various places as well without having to go to a vendor to replenish supplies. Maybe try exploring what possible good could come from it, or where it could lead, keep an open mind rather than go on the "just no-band wagon".

@Incarnate:
Outside of unofficial PnP games (read: games that are NOT organized play), have you ever used spell components or "spell components as gold"? Have you played an online game that did, such as Ultima Online? I have played PnP games where the DM enforced spell components. Oh, it sounds great, until the wizard can't do anything.

See, it's worth noting that even D&D 5th Edition organized play doesn't use such an outdated mechanic. Maybe you ought to think about the "why" of that. Tell me, is it balanced to give consequences, without choice, to someone simply for picking a class? And, no, it's not a "choice" if one can't play a class without mechanical consequences that other classes wouldn't suffer. Nothing harms immersion more than being frustrated at lack of reasonable choice, trust me.

samb123 wrote:@Incarnate:
Outside of unofficial PnP games (read: games that are NOT organized play), have you ever used spell components or "spell components as gold"? Have you played an online game that did, such as Ultima Online? I have played PnP games where the DM enforced spell components. Oh, it sounds great, until the wizard can't do anything.

See, it's worth noting that even D&D 5th Edition organized play doesn't use such an outdated mechanic. Maybe you ought to think about the "why" of that. Tell me, is it balanced to give consequences, without choice, to someone simply for picking a class? And, no, it's not a "choice" if one can't play a class without mechanical consequences that other classes wouldn't suffer. Nothing harms immersion more than being frustrated at lack of reasonable choice, trust me.

I still wonder why swords don't get damaged. Weapons get damaged when used pretty fast as consequence of being sharp. Sure, you can fix it quickly with maintenance, but it will wear it out.

samb123 wrote:@Incarnate:
Outside of unofficial PnP games (read: games that are NOT organized play), have you ever used spell components or "spell components as gold"? Have you played an online game that did, such as Ultima Online? I have played PnP games where the DM enforced spell components. Oh, it sounds great, until the wizard can't do anything.

See, it's worth noting that even D&D 5th Edition organized play doesn't use such an outdated mechanic. Maybe you ought to think about the "why" of that. Tell me, is it balanced to give consequences, without choice, to someone simply for picking a class? And, no, it's not a "choice" if one can't play a class without mechanical consequences that other classes wouldn't suffer. Nothing harms immersion more than being frustrated at lack of reasonable choice, trust me.

I never played Ultima Online, so I can't say specifically, but yes I have played games where you got in a situation where you couldn't do much, and yes that sucked, and it was a setback but there was still ways around it to get back, and you know what? I learned to be more careful, more aware and more attentive to my characters needs. When one suffers setbacks, one must learn from ones mistakes and adapt to the situation and improve on it.

...and you know you can even get to this point here on BG:TSCC as a spellcaster as it is now, because trying to solo and you're low on supplies and gold you will be in this position. I've been in this situation on several occasions on the server, and you know what? I still came out on top, because I adapted. So what does that tell you?

So naturally I disagree with that you can't do anything, spellcasters can still do things, are they hampered? Obviously they are but you know what? Spellcasters can still do things, are they effective this way? Certainly not, but even as a spellcaster without access to one's spells you can still do things, and one really should learn of ways how to get by without because that will very often happen as that is the nature of being a spellcaster. However, there should also exist ways around running low on spell components, like what is suggested, that one can actually go gather components in various places, and they could even use a different spellcasters pouch.

Guess you're misinformed then, 5e very much so still employs the use spell components, it may be that DM's chooses not to use it, but its very much so still a mechanic in 5e. Its not an outdated mechanic, but choosing not to use it allows for a more casual style of play.

Hoihe wrote: I still wonder why swords don't get damaged. Weapons get damaged when used pretty fast as consequence of being sharp. Sure, you can fix it quickly with maintenance, but it will wear it out.

Its just as reasonable to implement mechanics that deals with gear damage and maintenance, as mundane people would find their gear from time to would need to be repaired or replaced, where having the right professions, tools and materials one could make such repairs themselves.

I am so On board for lowering the magic!! I love low magic. Lets make material components for LOTS of spells!! (I play a wizard too). But we would also need the NPCS lose lots of magic and seriously reduce the power, and availability, of magic items... scrolls should not be sold above level 2 and magic items that cast spells would need to be rare DM drops. But I am still in favor of it.... CUZ I LOVE low magic =P.

Incarnate wrote:I never played Ultima Online, so I can't say specifically, but yes I have played games where you got in a situation where you couldn't do much, and yes that sucked, and it was a setback but there was still ways around it to get back, and you know what? I learned to be more careful, more aware and more attentive to my characters needs. When one suffers setbacks, one must learn from ones mistakes and adapt to the situation and improve on it.

And you don't see why that won't go over well in NWN2? It's not like PnP where adventures are balanced for that.

Incarnate wrote:Its just as reasonable to implement mechanics that deals with gear damage and maintenance, as mundane people would find their gear from time to would need to be repaired or replaced, where having the right professions, tools and materials one could make such repairs themselves.

Yeah, that sounds great, if we're playing Diablo 2...

That's not even a PnP mechanic, so why would we bother with that? So we can justify harming spellcasters?

samb123 wrote:

Incarnate wrote:I never played Ultima Online, so I can't say specifically, but yes I have played games where you got in a situation where you couldn't do much, and yes that sucked, and it was a setback but there was still ways around it to get back, and you know what? I learned to be more careful, more aware and more attentive to my characters needs. When one suffers setbacks, one must learn from ones mistakes and adapt to the situation and improve on it.

And you don't see why that won't go over well in NWN2? It's not like PnP where adventures are balanced for that.

I definitely see that you completely disregarded the fact that even here you can be put in such situations and that its very possible to recover from those. I disagree with you, furthermore, like I said if especially there implemented ways to gather spell components without having to use coin for, then its just a matter of doing this once in a while, which can easily be done while adventuring! You're making this into that would be the end of the world for spellcasters with something like this implemented, which would be far from the case.

samb123 wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Its just as reasonable to implement mechanics that deals with gear damage and maintenance, as mundane people would find their gear from time to would need to be repaired or replaced, where having the right professions, tools and materials one could make such repairs themselves.

Yeah, that sounds great, if we're playing Diablo 2...

That's not even a PnP mechanic, so why would we bother with that? So we can justify harming spellcasters?

That it actually is, there are rules that handle this, but again dm's may choose not to use these rules. However, non magical weapons can actually break in the game but you cannot repair them currently.

Incarnate wrote:I definitely see that you completely disregarded the fact that even here you can be put in such situations and that its very possible to recover from those. I disagree with you, furthermore, like I said if especially there implemented ways to gather spell components without having to use coin for, then its just a matter of doing this once in a while, which can easily be done while adventuring!

Until you've actually had to do this in a game, I suspect you will have zero idea how much of a pain it will be. We're talking hours of extra play a week, just for playing a spellcaster. It's similar to how, in MMOs, to raid, most guilds made it your job to brings potions and other short-term power buffs. You either spent a lot OR spent most of the rest of your play time getting ready for raids.
So, even if we implemented "gear damage" for melee types, they just fix things up in about 2 minutes. Or, you know, we add the extra annoyance, at best, of cutting short adventuring because you have to go buy reagants/repair gear at some special shop(s) (or edit current shops)...Yeah, sounds great...

Roleplay should never place a burden on someone.

Incarnate wrote:That it actually is, there are rules that handle this, but again dm's may choose not to use these rules.

Unearthed Arcana "rules" don't count.


I'm going to repeat something, so the difference in our philosophies is highlighted. Roleplay should never place a burden on someone. That's the difference of opinion we have. You see no issue with adding extra work, on the devs, on the admins, on the players... in order to satisfy your need/desire to be able to roleplay an outdated mechanic.

samb123 wrote:

Incarnate wrote:I definitely see that you completely disregarded the fact that even here you can be put in such situations and that its very possible to recover from those. I disagree with you, furthermore, like I said if especially there implemented ways to gather spell components without having to use coin for, then its just a matter of doing this once in a while, which can easily be done while adventuring!

Until you've actually had to do this in a game, I suspect you will have zero idea how much of a pain it will be. We're talking hours of extra play a week, just for playing a spellcaster. It's similar to how, in MMOs, to raid, most guilds made it your job to brings potions and other short-term power buffs. You either spent a lot OR spent most of the rest of your play time getting ready for raids.
So, even if we implemented "gear damage" for melee types, they just fix things up in about 2 minutes. Or, you know, we add the extra annoyance, at best, of cutting short adventuring because you have to go buy reagants/repair gear at some special shop(s) (or edit current shops)...Yeah, sounds great...

Roleplay should never place a burden on someone.

You're making this seem like it such a bad thing, perhaps because you have had such a bad experience with playing Ultima Online that you automatically think that it will be the same. Far from it - the two concepts are very, very different. First of all, it it will be bad or good will be depend a lot on the actual implementation of it, then how bad or good it will be depends on how severe its made - you're assuming the worst possible scenario!! How much time and effort is required to gather spell components doesn't have to be grueling ordeal or be time consuming for that matter. Besides, its meant to make spells matter more, to make them be used with actual consideration and thought behind them, to make the spells be used when it truly counts.

samb123 wrote:

Incarnate wrote:That it actually is, there are rules that handle this, but again dm's may choose not to use these rules.

Unearthed Arcana "rules" don't count.

I'm going to repeat something, so the difference in our philosophies is highlighted. Roleplay should never place a burden on someone. That's the difference of opinion we have. You see no issue with adding extra work, on the devs, on the admins, on the players... in order to satisfy your need/desire to be able to roleplay an outdated mechanic.

What has Unearthed Arcana to do with gear and item damage?? Would you kindly if you're going to quote me and hold me to what I write, that you do so in the context its actually in? Because its detrimental to the discussion when you take it and put into a new context.

Funny you keep stating its an outdated mechanic, because to this date its still in the game of DnD! Apparently I'm not alone in thinking something needs to be done about it. You don't know anything about my philosophies, and I never said anything about what I think about how its going to affect others, or that I don't care how it affects others. I don't place any burden onto anyone, playing a spellcaster in a roleplaying game such as DnD in Forgotten Realms would normally make one having to get spell components every now and then, and it would seem you're more accustomed to a more casual type of playstyle than actual immersive roleplaying. Did you know that there is item such a spell component pouch in DnD? There is so for a reason, to be used! Lore-wise, spellcasters do spend time on collecting spellcomponents, even in a PnP it could be as simple as the DM accepting the player doing a minimum of a lip-service to it know and then but the DM could just as well be enforcing more micromanagement of the spell components, and the lore would support it if came down to the micromanagement.

But we are different, you see obstacles and restrictions where I see pontential and possibilities. I'll repeat what I said, you're assuming the worst possible outcome, even when in fact its two very different concept. It won't hurt to keep an open mind about things, and sometimes new possibilities unfold due exploring new ideas.