Clairaudience/Clairvoyance

[The Whistler]

So.. what exactly is MMO there?

The massive amount of changes, and the attempts at "rebalancing" classes and creating a fairer mechanical environment. D&D has nothing to do with fairness, whereas MMOs are all about it (or perceived fairness by the community).

We don't balance for fairness. Fairness is essentially an arbitrary concept in a game like this.

What we balance for is accurately described here,
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Design_Philosophy

There seems to be some division of thought regarding this whole 'balance' thing here.

[Boddynock]

And for the sake of transparency, although I have heard this from more than one source I am apparently the only one not afraid to speak my mind publicly. Many people have commented that it seems the most ardent supporter, and indeed the most vocal QC member on this topic in general, plays a HIPSter as his main. Understand I am not throwing this out there as some sort of personal prosecution or accusation, but rather from the understanding that it is 100% impossible to remove all bias. Rather you do it intentionally or not, Mendel, you are biased against detectors and for sneaks. That's fine, everyone does it, and as I said it is impossible to control for 100%, but with that knowledge it strikes me that QC chose an odd person to champion these changes.

Dont be afraid about saying what you think of me. I dont care if you or anyone else thinks i am biased. This is a community forum and everyone make their own assumptions. As i have my own assumptions about you - which are not good when the matter at hand is mechanics.

One only needs to know simple mathematics to figure this one out. Leave bard inspirations out. Leave bards out of the picture. Take any character with maxed listen. Thats 33. When you want to detect a sneak, ie when you want to have a private converstaion, then activate search mode. Cast C&C from wand, cast amplify from wand. thats another 30 on listen. for a total of 63 giving you a chance to detect a sneak with up to 82 Hide/MS. That is all it needs.

Lets take the sneak now. I will give you a +2DEX race s that you can reach 29dex +3Item = 32 for a +11mod. 33 + 11 = 44. Then take a +5 form move silently and strealthy. Thats 2 feats that you could have used for more AC or AB or Damage. Thats 49. Then the only items a sneak can find are +3boots +3belt +3armor +2hood +2ring +2ring +2Cloak +3Amulet +6dual daggers = 26. 49 +26 =75!!! That is with all slots equiped with sneak gear, sacrificing any AC, AB, saves, HP.

So a character - any character - with limited investment in detection, can reliably detect a character heavy invested in stealth. In which pararel universe, that is considered balanced? Alright, I am biased about stealth. What the numbers above make you about a +20 bonus on listen from a spell that can be crafted as a wand? Do you consider such example " balanced"?

Edit: Anyway, my days as QC are numbered. I will leave the QC team when the update issues are sorted. Then those "I am 1000000% against this change just..because" and ghost QCers can do whatever they please. Who knows, maybe then yu can ask to join the QC again, since i was the one against you joining.

We already a suggested an issue for the amplify of +1 listen per CL, with a max of 20. Which means that sneak will, if they don't know who their targets are, will always be AT RISK of being detected. That is 100% how it should be. Stealth shouldn't be as easy as the press of a button=carte blanche safety, and neither should detection, which again, is why we have suggested the +1 listen per CL, so it requires investment and is not a push button solution. This suggestion still has yet to be addressed! Quit ignoring that and insisting that the only options are what we have now, or the flat +20 you can put on a wand. No one else is making that assertion.

And let me add again, nothing about my previous statement was directed at you personally. I was simply stating that EVERYONE is biased, it is human nature, you can't help it. I simply pointed out that it is odd that the only highly vocal QC member regarding this particular change is you, a sneak. Does that not strike you as odd, was there no one else, or were you simply taking charge on this issue?

[mrm3ntalist]

And let me add again, nothing about my previous statement was directed at you personally. I was simply stating that EVERYONE is biased, it is human nature, you can't help it. I simply pointed out that it is odd that the only highly vocal QC member regarding this particular change is you, a sneak. Does that not strike you as odd, was there no one else, or were you simply taking charge on this issue?

There is no need to explain mate. And your previous personal statement was directed at me ( unless you are confused with medune who runs around saying he is Mendel )

I wish you could see the posts on the QC thread. Then you could learn first hand who saying what. Till then you can only assume.

We already a suggested an issue for the amplify of +1 listen per CL, with a max of 20. Which means that sneak will, if they don't know who their targets are, will always be AT RISK of being detected. That is 100% how it should be. Stealth shouldn't be as easy as the press of a button=carte blanche safety, and neither should detection, which again, is why we have suggested the +1 listen per CL, so it requires investment and is not a push button solution. This suggestion still has yet to be addressed! Quit ignoring that and insisting that the only options are what we have now, or the flat +20 you can put on a wand. No one else is making that assertion.

Mate, instead of just talking about risks, put the numbers down to support your argument. Even if amplify gets nerfed, the sneak will always be AT RISK of being detected even by someone with no detection gear on.

The as easy as the press of a button is happening now, but not for the sneak. It happens for the detector, although it is more like pressing two buttons.

[Flasmix]

Don't worry! Another spell was added that is totally awesome for protecting your private conversations! A cantrip, Roricks Light Rune... Or something like that... It lasts 2 hours per caster level and whenever anybody, stealthed or invisible walks into the area a flash of light goes off! It's awesome because it doesn't matter how high your skills are, you'll always be able to tell if someone is trying to spy on you without having to invest in detection skills.

[mrm3ntalist]

Don't worry! Another spell was added that is totally awesome for protecting your private conversations! A cantrip, Roricks Light Rune... Or something like that... It lasts 2 hours per caster level and whenever anybody, stealthed or invisible walks into the area a flash of light goes off! It's awesome because it doesn't matter how high your skills are, you'll always be able to tell if someone is trying to spy on you without having to invest in detection skills.

Dont give all the secrets out! You are making it very easy for them

[chad878262]

from that link:

This translates into keeping an eye on (some of) the following factors to develop and balance the environment.
How does monster power compare against player characters of that challenge rating? Make sure they remain a proper challenge to keep the game fun.

Make sure items are balanced in the sense that they don't accumulate into a huge advantage which robs the environment of any challenge it might offer at that challenge rating.

Make sure no class or multi-class combination is overpowered in the sense that it would rob the environment of any challenge it might offer at that challenge rating.

Add new feats, spells and classes to allow players as much freedom as possible to develop their character.

Add new monsters, areas, quests and systems to deepen the gameplay and keep players on their toes.

Assist the DM's as much as possible in keeping a persistent, interactive environment in which actions have consequences. Anything is possible.

Listen to player feedback and ideas for things to change and add or prioritize.

Have fun doing it, since we're only volunteers

I bolded the two key phrases I would apply here. First, in that by the same toke of considering item balance, it can also be considered that spells could also impact that. In this case, a +10, + 20 (or both) increase to a skill falls under the concept of a huge advantage. The second point is key because anything is NOT possible. in that you can NOT build a sneak in today's environment that has any possibility of being a 'good' sneak. Because players that do not invest nearly the equivalent in being able to hear you still do so easily. So taking out the fun wordplay and post quoting yes, I do believe this was justified. If you want to better be able to find a sneak the INVEST in being able to do so, at the expense of your Strength (*gasp* the horror!) and at the expense of skill focus feats, and wearing items to further enhance the skill at the expense of armor. That's what sneaks are forced to do to have any chance in pve, not to mention being able to actually RP sneaking in to places perhaps they shouldn't be....an risking pvp from anyone that wants because using stealth auto consents to pvp when spotted and told to come out of the shadows (or whatever).

As to the +1 / CL, ok...then how about non-detection applies to amplify as well as C&C? It should have it's counter after all. Amplify is supposed to amplify the sounds in a (small?) area, not improve the casters hearing. So technically unless the sneak comes in that area they shouldn't have any penalty (nor should the caster have a benefit) In addition, non-detection should have a chance to counter that amplifying effect since the whole point of the spell is to do so.

As to C&C it is not supposed to give any spot or listen benefit. It is a low powered scrying spell... it just cheapens stealth even further.

EDIT: Apparently I am not important enough to count as a QC voice that is for this change having occurred...

EDIT part 2: Unless the sneak toggles you hostile, they do not get to roll d20 added to stealth to compete against the detection. So you are getting +1-20 listen and spot based on your roll, while the sneak gets +0...that is outside of any spell or gear. If they do toggle hostile, then OOC you know they are there somewhere.

[Blackman D]

Does that not strike you as odd, was there no one else, or were you simply taking charge on this issue?

i have sneaks and detectors and im not a fan of it either, tho i dont feel the need to say the same thing others just said, unless its just pointing out that i agree, but yes there were others

also i prefer not to spend time arguing on public threads that can grow 4 pages in an hour, hard to follow ... which generally includes any thread with the word "stealth" in it

[Flasmix]

Why not change amplify to instead of a listen bonus, it gives everybody in a 20 foot radius around the caster a -1 move silently per caster level. This would allow sneaks to stand farther back without being affected.

[thids]

It's the same story all over again:

Constant ignoring of the fact that it's two different skills on each side - CHECK
Pretending like +6ms boots are useless because then you need to put on a ring of hide (which you don't) - CHECK
Ignoring the fact that the spotter used M A G I C to give himself an edge for a limited amount of time - CHECK
Ignoring the questions on which part of this server's gameplay this balance change belongs to, thus stringing the discussion along in circles, instead of focusing on the arguments and aspect of gameplay this belongs to - CHECK

Why not change amplify to instead of a listen bonus, it gives everybody in a 20 foot radius around the caster a -1 move silently per caster level. This would allow sneaks to stand farther back without being affected.

Put a cooldown on the usage of those particular wands and those particular spells. That would be the "fairest" solution and it would eliminate the ability to dump gold into wands in order to spam them for blanket safety. That is what we are trying to avoid here, right? Blanket safety for both sides? Reading some of the "pro sneak" arguments, I could swear blanket safety for one side is exactly what these changes are aimed towards. What's next? +4 hide/ms gear in the loot table? Granting any character with the feat hips the mechanical status of a DM avatar, making them completely invisible to anyone playerside?

[Boddynock]

+3boots +3belt +3armor +2hood +2ring +2ring +2Cloak +3Amulet +6dual daggers = 26. 49 +26 =75!!!

+3 MS is not available on a Belt unless it is (maybe) from RIG, or a DM gift, same goes for armor. Boots you could up to +6, but you would need to take one ring away since that would be used for a +6 hide ring. Anywho, point is even with granting new and improved sneak gear, it is insane that one spell should counter Stat, Skill, multiple Feat and items specifically focused on stealth. I can't even believe the argument has reached this point.

Player A - 3 Feats, 66 skill points, Min-Maxed for highest possible Dex, items focused on stealth at cost of 2 natural AC, 2 Armor AC, 3 Dodge AC and 2 deflection AC (9 lower AC!!!) to reach maximum possible stealth.

Player B - 33 skill points and 2 spells... click on search and wins automatically with negative wisdom, no feat or item (AC) cost.

Yep, that is totally fair and balanced.

Literally no one is saying that is fair. We are asserting that these spells have gone too far in the other direction. We have suggested a compromise, that once again, still remains unaddressed. And once again, there are those numbers which use, by definition, an inconsistent comparison. You cannot compare permanent skill boosts from feats and gear to circumstantial boosts that last six seconds per level.

If the real issue here is that the use of magic trumps the mundane skills of the sneak...well let me counter with...duh. That has always been the case, and is even more true with the new UMD/dispel fix. Yet the melee classes that don't have the mechanical benefit of HIPs have to just deal with the sudden decrease in the effectiveness of UMD. And on the issue of magic, your number don't include pass without trace or camouflage... Using camouflage to boost only one skill out of detection range mean we have half as many chances to detect you, so already a huge boost there, and pass without trace gives another +4 move silently, bring that number up to 79. And, for the sake of you doing what you should do when sneaking up on people... let's add your d20, which you DO get if you set them hostile. And what we really end up at is you get detected if the listener rolls a twenty and you roll a 1-4.
Which actually sounds perfectly reasonable.

[mrm3ntalist]

Put a cooldown on the usage of those particular wands and those particular spells. That would be the "fairest" solution and it would eliminate the ability to dump gold into wands in order to spam them for blanket safety. That is what we are trying to avoid here, right? Blanket safety for both sides? Reading some of the "pro sneak" arguments, I could swear blanket safety for one side is exactly what these changes are aimed towards. What's next? +4 hide/ms gear in the loot table? Granting any character with the feat hips the mechanical status of a DM avatar, making them completely invisible to anyone playerside?

How is there a blanket safety? Care to show me that? Because the only blanket safety that we currently have, is to safely detect - any - sneak because of the massive bonuses those skills get, as demonstrated with examples before.

[Boddynock]

EDIT: Apparently I am not important enough to count as a QC voice that is for this change having occurred...

EDIT part 2: Unless the sneak toggles you hostile, they do not get to roll d20 added to stealth to compete against the detection. So you are getting +1-20 listen and spot based on your roll, while the sneak gets +0...that is outside of any spell or gear. If they do toggle hostile, then OOC you know they are there somewhere.

I didn't mean to leave you out . I was referring to it being odd that a sneak choose to champion this issue and be the most vocal.

And yeah...toggle them hostile. I do. And I find that the VAST majority of the server does not metagame... Have a little faith. Either way that is a red herring again, the problem there is metagaming, not the spells or the skills.

And yeah, I am all for a fix that makes listen a -20 to move silently centered around the caster (or another target), that exactly what it is in PNP right? Although to be as close as we can get to accuracy it should really be -20 to move silently and to listen, as if you are withing the area, you aren't aware of the amplification. It is meant to be used at range, you cast it down a hall and hear what is going on. But either way, putting a solid radius on it means the sneak actually has to mess up to be at risk, and get caught in range. That seems like a good balance of risk vs reward to me.

[mrm3ntalist]

Using camouflage to boost only one skill out of detection range mean we have half as many chances to detect you, so already a huge boost there, and pass without trace gives another +4 move silently, bring that number up to 79. And, for the sake of you doing what you should do when sneaking up on people... let's add your d20, which you DO get if you set them hostile. And what we really end up at is you get detected if the listener rolls a twenty and you roll a 1-4.
Which actually sounds perfectly reasonable.

Pass without a trace is +6. You understand that we are talking about a detector with nothing but a maxed listen and two wands, against someone who hides that sacrificed everything ( feats, items etc )? How is that reasonable? ...

What you probably dont know is that the +10 bonus from camouflage was asked to be lowered as well.

[Deathgrowl]

And let me add again, nothing about my previous statement was directed at you personally. I was simply stating that EVERYONE is biased, it is human nature, you can't help it. I simply pointed out that it is odd that the only highly vocal QC member regarding this particular change is you, a sneak. Does that not strike you as odd, was there no one else, or were you simply taking charge on this issue?

I also play a sneak. And a detector. Where does that leave my bias, then?

I didn't want this change to C/C and Amplify. Indeed, I've always wanted the two spells to be more PnP like. Where C/C isn't even remotely connected to detecting. It's a low level scrying spell targetted on location rather than person. And Amplify is a 15 ft radius of 20 move silently decrease (rather than a boost to listen).

Whichever way you look at it, it's going to be a nerf of sorts. And I'm fine with that both as a detector and as a sneak.

[chad878262]

posted to QC thread:

Amplify
(Magic of Faerûn)

Transmutation [Sonic]
Level: Bard 1,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 minute/level
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 15-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes or No (object)

You cause an amplification of all sounds within the spell's area.
This decreases the DC to hear those sounds by 20.
Those creatures within the spell's area do not notice the increased amplification.
Thus, anyone whose voice is amplified remains unaware of the increase in volume.

Source: http://alcyius.com/dndtools/spells/magi ... index.html
So maybe we can try to make it closer to the PnP equivalent. Instead of casting on yourself giving +20 listen you have to cast it on a specified 15 ft. radius area and remain outside that area in order to hear the amplified sounds from within... and...huh? looks like there is a will save to avoid amplification all together! how about that? Hey, it gives 1 minute per level, allows you to protect a doorway or small area in the case of being in a somewhat secure location... Would this be better?