Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Regarding Item Level Restriction removal, you can read about the "discussion" that came afterwards, here.

As in that discussion, there are 3 overlapping issues that should be considered: muling (as in alt PCs for holding your extended inventory of loot); Level Restrictions on Items (which you as a Player may now want to hoard on your Mule because...); Twinking (putting high level gear on your low level toon, which allows for a complete dismissal of the CR rating of Areas on this Server...not to forget to mention skewing mechanical conflict at your Toon's CR Level).

Muling doesn't need to happen anymore, since the Permanent Storage is installed. But with Permanent Storage, we still have a) the lag its causing which Endelyon herself said might require removal if it cannot be fixed; b) the slight inconvenience of having to go to specific places on the Server in which to check/update your inventory/stock. It's really not that big an inconvenience, but whatever.

Now, Item Level Restriction, unless this has changed, Endelyon stated "...there is no going back." Maecius hinted we could reverse this change, and I personally think it should be reversed, because having low level Toons with superior gear, does "ruin it" for equally low lever toons with new players, that simply cannot compete in the mechanics department (at least, not until they start twinking...which brings me to:)

Twinking is kinda the big issue. I've twinked my arse off over the years here on BG, because I spent so little time looting, that whatever gear I do acquire, I really want to use for a Character Concept. Would I throw a fit and quit if Twinking was prevented? No. I'd still make the most of the Character RP experience. However, it would be difficult to accept No Twinking with the current Server, having so many uber equipped PCs already by so many other players!

I could see and accept a new system of No Muling, No Level Restrictions, No Twinking...if there was a server wipe and restart. Even if in this action you gave all the Players a free Lvl 30 pot of experience points to do what they want in re-creating their Toon, the aspect of a Gear Wipe, would be the only way to address the No Muling, No Twinking issue.

Oh, and...install crafting when you do it!!!

For me, I'd be fairly neutral if mulling/twinking were outlawed, but I don't think it'd enhance RP on the server.

My (re-)start on the server was facilitated by Steve's low level adventure initiative, and I can see fewer of those initiatives occurring if epic chars are blocked from granting gear to an alt to get them started. It may just increase the rift between new players starting with 1000gp and gazillionaire epics who want to (quite rightly) hold on to the stuff they've expended real time earning.

I never minded the item restrictions before - they don't make much RP sense but they're a necessary evil if you want to prevent twinking.

I might be a relatively new player, but i talked to some other people already. It seems to me, that this server has so many players, because they are not limited by the DMs so much.

Here are things allowed, on other places i played, they are forbidden and players got banned for that.
In the beginning it was weird and i still have to get used to it. Still i used to play on servers that where much more strict. But i actually began to like all the freedoms, players have here, to develop and equip their characters in my eyes.

It helps players who have not so much time to play, due to RL and works, really a lot.

VillageGreenWitch wrote:Such items are either not available at all to anyone not having comparable gear to trade - or only available if you circlegrind the epic bosses for a million times.

If you are a player that has been here for years and had/has loads of free time you will perhaps have a comparable storage like what you two apparently have - since you fought the white dragon a couple hundred times and the other bosses (that I don't even know their location and/or appearance of) comparably often.

If you are a new player and/or someone with limited spare time and/or not playing a minmaxed FS, Bard, Cleric etc but an actual RP build (because you take "medium RP" for serious and simply don't want to "rp" WIS 8, CHA 6 or DEX 8) and/or not spending your whole time circlegrinding through the epic areas you will not have equipment (and a storage) comparable to those I mentioned above. Period.

No offence taken, but what I dislike about this post is that you talk like your opinion is fact.
1. I've NEVER circle-grinded bosses, I've never had the PC's to do that.
2. I've never had loads of free time - I play at 9pm to maybe 11pm in the GMT+10 timezone, a very underpopulated timezone.
3. I've NEVER fought the White Dragon, not even once. I've fought the Balor once and died almost immediately. I've never fought the Dracolich. Most other bosses Draviir could beat although after the caster level fix I rarely bothered, too much effort for the reward.
4. Draviir is as RP as I wanted to make him - he had max Appraise, max lore arcana and some other lore skills to help with his merchant RP.
5. I have NEVER had a FS or Cleric. I briefly RCR'd into a Bard, then deleted him altogether. I've had a Druid years ago but hated buffing, never had a wizard or sorcerer. My three main PC's here over the years have been a crossbow halfling, an aasimar monk and Draviir, a human fighter. No magic for me ...
6. I could circle grind, and did in the past on my halfling, but honestly it's extremely boring. Also, by circle grinding you MAY gain epic items. You WILL gain gold, which you can use to buy epic items. You WON'T gain grandfathered items but you could use your newly gotten RIG epic items to trade for GF items. Which leads me to my last point ...
7. The best way to gain GF/High Epic gear is to trade. Karond told everyone how to do it but no-one really listens. It's the Red Paper Clip method. It works. Two years ago I gave away everything I ever had save a few items to equip Draviir with. Now, 2 years later, I have more and better stuff than before. You just have to trade. So literally anyone can do it, it's just that people don't want to offer up their good stuff, they don't have the balls. They want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to lowball. Karond once told me, "it isn't a good trade unless both sides of the trade are happy." No one likes getting conned, even if it's only a video game. So, you want good gear, put your own good gear on the line too.

So there you go ... all the above is FACT.

But it doesn't really impact the initial statement of mine that, you can be successful in a PvE environment with GF gear, epic hell gear, epic gear or basic +3 gear. FvS and Wizards don't need any gear, neither do Bards apparently. And all the GF gear in the world won't do you a lick of good if you build sucks or if a DM wants you dead. So leave muling as is, it's not as immersion breaking as many other aspects of our awesome game.

Steve wrote:Now, Item Level Restriction, unless this has changed, Endelyon stated "...there is no going back." Maecius hinted we could reverse this change, and I personally think it should be reversed

It's sort of a misnomer to say it can't be turned back on (in fact, it's literally as easy as checking a single box on the nwn2server console--I could flip it on and off 50 times in a minute if I was feeling particularly manic). To clarify, the real issue is that if any character has an item equipped that exceeds their level with the box checked on then that player will be completely unable to log into the module on said character, the only fixes being tedious editing of their character file, or arranging with them a time that they're trying to log in so you can briefly manually toggle the feature off for long enough for them to log in and take the item off.

Both options are time consuming to even have to do it for a single person. Multiply this by our dozens and dozens (hundred? hundreds?) of players, then multiply that again by possibly having to fix multiple characters for each one, and you can understand how it would be a complete nightmare.

AC81 wrote:
No offence taken, but what I dislike about this post is that you talk like your opinion is fact.
1. I've NEVER circle-grinded bosses, I've never had the PC's to do that.
2. I've never had loads of free time - I play at 9pm to maybe 11pm in the GMT+10 timezone, a very underpopulated timezone.
3. I've NEVER fought the White Dragon, not even once. I've fought the Balor once and died almost immediately. I've never fought the Dracolich. Most other bosses Draviir could beat although after the caster level fix I rarely bothered, too much effort for the reward.
4. Draviir is as RP as I wanted to make him - he had max Appraise, max lore arcana and some other lore skills to help with his merchant RP.
5. I have NEVER had a FS or Cleric. I briefly RCR'd into a Bard, then deleted him altogether. I've had a Druid years ago but hated buffing, never had a wizard or sorcerer. My three main PC's here over the years have been a crossbow halfling, an aasimar monk and Draviir, a human fighter. No magic for me ...
6. I could circle grind, and did in the past on my halfling, but honestly it's extremely boring. Also, by circle grinding you MAY gain epic items. You WILL gain gold, which you can use to buy epic items. You WON'T gain grandfathered items but you could use your newly gotten RIG epic items to trade for GF items. Which leads me to my last point ...
7. The best way to gain GF/High Epic gear is to trade. Karond told everyone how to do it but no-one really listens. It's the Red Paper Clip method. It works. Two years ago I gave away everything I ever had save a few items to equip Draviir with. Now, 2 years later, I have more and better stuff than before. You just have to trade. So literally anyone can do it, it's just that people don't want to offer up their good stuff, they don't have the balls. They want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to lowball. Karond once told me, "it isn't a good trade unless both sides of the trade are happy." No one likes getting conned, even if it's only a video game. So, you want good gear, put your own good gear on the line too.

So there you go ... all the above is FACT.

But it doesn't really impact the initial statement of mine that, you can be successful in a PvE environment with GF gear, epic hell gear, epic gear or basic +3 gear. FvS and Wizards don't need any gear, neither do Bards apparently. And all the GF gear in the world won't do you a lick of good if you build sucks or if a DM wants you dead. So leave muling as is, it's not as immersion breaking as many other aspects of our awesome game.

Alright, first off - apologies. I should have added at least one "as I see it" or "as fas as I can see" to make it clear that I do not hold the only viable insight to this topic (and I knew even before your reply that I don't!). Sorry.

A few comments, though:

6. I could circle grind, and did in the past on my halfling, but honestly it's extremely boring. Also, by circle grinding you MAY gain epic items. You WILL gain gold, which you can use to buy epic items. You WON'T gain grandfathered items but you could use your newly gotten RIG epic items to trade for GF items.

No idea what RIG means - but as fas as my experience goes people are actually less willing to give away the non-buyable stuff, these days. I do not own a single epic item I found in loot, the epic items I have I bought from the hell shop.
I thought I own an epic item (that I actually bought from another player) but as it seems it's rather "worthless" (compared to "epic items for trade" stuff).

I also do not need to circle-grind to make money. Money is infact the easiest ressource to gain here (given the right kind of character) - but it doesn't help much in aquiring the "real" epic items.
(It feels odd to distinguish the items from the several epic shops from the epic items from the loot but since this separation is made by (most of) who own the epic loot, I simply follow there . . .)

The best way to gain GF/High Epic gear is to trade. Karond told everyone how to do it but no-one really listens. It's the Red Paper Clip method. It works. Two years ago I gave away everything I ever had save a few items to equip Draviir with. Now, 2 years later, I have more and better stuff than before. You just have to trade. So literally anyone can do it, it's just that people don't want to offer up their good stuff, they don't have the balls. They want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to lowball. Karond once told me, "it isn't a good trade unless both sides of the trade are happy." No one likes getting conned, even if it's only a video game. So, you want good gear, put your own good gear on the line too.

I read Karonds guide, several times. I have yet to meet the people he traded with, though.
People I meet are usually willing to sell their low-to-mid-level stuff, up to plain +4 items. They happily sell everything that I can get from a shop, too.
They usualy don't sell anything epic that cannot be bought from shop.
They want to trade it with something of higher value (to them or in general) - which is epic loot, which people usually don't own, unless they open a lot of chests/kill a lot of creatures in epic areas. (Hey, did you notice? I totally avoided the term "circle-gri... damn. )

I have no idea how you made it to "more and better stuff than before" without having any source of epic non-buyable loot in the first place.
If you really don't grind for epic items and didn't have such when you re-started you either somehow tricked players into giving away their stuff (which I doubt ) or . . . no idea, really.

"Starting from nothing and getting to high-end storage again with no source of epic items" sounds odd to me, really.
In the end, it comes down to this: Shea is a merchant (and mechancially focused on that, from stats to classes to feats to skills). She aquires mid-level items from other players (and sometimes highlevel items, too, for example if someone carries her dead body to the hell shop, revives her and carries her again-dead body back, then ).
She sells that equipment to others.
She's always looking around for opportunities and I very much enjoy her RP (as already stated).

After about half a year of serious merchant RP I feel safe to say, though, that Kel or Karond or Draviir were/are playing in an own league, a league I will not aim to join. Just to avoid frustration.

But it doesn't really impact the initial statement of mine that, you can be successful in a PvE environment with GF gear, epic hell gear, epic gear or basic +3 gear. FvS and Wizards don't need any gear, neither do Bards apparently. And all the GF gear in the world won't do you a lick of good if you build sucks or if a DM wants you dead. So leave muling as is, it's not as immersion breaking as many other aspects of our awesome game

And this I can simply agree with.


In the end it just boils down to the feeling of "we came too late to be part of the real party, we have to live with the remains they left for us. Oh and we need stronger PCs and way more time. We need to grind to get the real stuff."

A seriously exaggerated statement, I know. But considering several of the posts here in the forum, several tells ingame and several PMs it is a common feeling that most probably holds some truth nevertheless.

You people blow my mind.

This is why people move on from NWN. And other servers died because of these things. Say what you want about ToA - they did stuff right. 50 - 75% rcrs, sensible rules about permadeath, and you could mule. And getting to epic level DIDN'T TAKE OVER HALF A YEAR for people THAT DON'T SIT ON THE COMPUTER ALL DAY LONG. Are you all out of your minds? Level restrictions again and banning muling?

Does the staff not even begin to comprehend the amount of other stuff that needs to be worked on more important than this, problems that have been issues on BG for -years- that you've all left lingering and not wanting to deal with?

And you all wonder why whenever someone makes a new server people leave here in droves. This is such a non-issue and affects hardly anyone else, the economy is fine, and this is such an overblown exaggerated drama bomb that it's not even worth considering.

What an absolute joke. I've said my peace - but watching it continue is just depressing. I for one will be MANY of the others that leave.

Endelyon wrote:This possibility is still very much in the "theory crafting" stage currently, so there's no reason to get up in arms or to enter into prolonged debate/back-and-forth with one another. Every opinion is valid, and I'm curious to see what people think about this.

cigarsmoke wrote:You people blow my mind.

This is why people move on from NWN. And other servers died because of these things. Say what you want about ToA - they did stuff right. 50 - 75% rcrs, sensible rules about permadeath, and you could mule. And getting to epic level DIDN'T TAKE OVER HALF A YEAR for people THAT DON'T SIT ON THE COMPUTER ALL DAY LONG. Are you all out of your minds? Level restrictions again and banning muling?

Does the staff not even begin to comprehend the amount of other stuff that needs to be worked on more important than this, problems that have been issues on BG for -years- that you've all left lingering and not wanting to deal with?

And you all wonder why whenever someone makes a new server people leave here in droves. This is such a non-issue and affects hardly anyone else, the economy is fine, and this is such an overblown exaggerated drama bomb that it's not even worth considering.

What an absolute joke. I've said my peace - but watching it continue is just depressing. I for one will be MANY of the others that leave.

Thanks for your valued and constructive input

Ffeeegh. still awake...

is it possible to have a sub-server for the nexus perhaps, or disablee level requirements in the nexus before you enter, so that if level enforcement is enabled, it could be done, and the player would have an alert beefore entering the actual server that their character is wearing items that don't match the restriction?

dedude wrote: Thanks for your valued and constructive input

I had constructive input before this. Watching it devolve into taking away improvements that were made to the server in the first place irked me. But nice try at the snark, man. Like I said, I said my peace -before- that post.

Making muling legal has a strange effect on the economy. It does two things : medium magical items become mundane and common, so they are sold at cheap price, and very powerful magical items prices skyrockets to ridiculous levels as it is account gold, rather than the toon's gold, that decides who gets the super powerful item.

I'm sure new players likes having medium magical items at cheap prices but the real winners are the old guards with years of Baldur's Gate gaming with their millions upon millions of gold pieces in the universal, account stash.

Gotta love 'em old guards.

the title subject is "Muling-Fair Game or Not?"
is it fair? no. new players will have less to twink with than old players. but who cares.

players with lots of alts: twinking all of them is super expensive and there just isnt enough to twink them out all full in epic gear. this is where i play at and my toons do not have all epic gear. not even close.

players with a main and little to no alts: they arent twinking. any gear they accumulate is staying on the main and therefor not changing anything except maybe their personal economy.

players that play one main at a time. changing every couple years: they can gear up pretty nicely and make improvements to top end gear right away.

i do not care one way or another if we twink or not. i do not think it really does as much as being pushed out here.

chambordini wrote:

cigarsmoke wrote:

dedude wrote: Thanks for your valued and constructive input

I had constructive input before this. Watching it devolve into taking away improvements that were made to the server in the first place irked me. But nice try at the snark, man. Like I said, I said my peace -before- that post.

To be clear, nothing will happen to muling, this was just an exercise in asking for the community's input, a few devs didn't think most of the server was pro-muling.
So yeah, in general, this has been valuable feedback, barring the unnecessary and unkind conclusion jumping...

edited out as not a contribution to the conversation... sorry

cigarsmoke wrote:And you all wonder why whenever someone makes a new server people leave here in droves. This is such a non-issue and affects hardly anyone else, the economy is fine, and this is such an overblown exaggerated drama bomb that it's not even worth considering.

What an absolute joke. I've said my peace - but watching it continue is just depressing. I for one will be MANY of the others that leave.

Who gave any indication that anyone was "wondering" this? Our server population and activity have been higher in the last year than they have since the very early days of the module, but we're not going to base our decisions on whether or not it might cause someone to go play on another server. I can respect the fact that you prefer the way ToA was run, but this is not ToA and I have no desire to make it such. If many people leave over it? I'm okay with that, too.

Our players are not expendable, but from a logistics standpoint there have been many times where I wished our population was much, much smaller than it is. This isn't even some kind of humble-brag, the more players we have things become harder and harder from an administration standpoint (and it becomes harder and harder to make anyone happy!).

Not that I would choose to outlaw muling for the specific intent to shrink the playerbase, either. I don't know what all the fuss is about, this is a question one of our developers brought to me and he was curious about how the players would feel if we moved to a "no muling" policy. This line of discussion is simply the natural result of that. Just because we're taking a poll doesn't mean we're doing it because we've already decided we want to turn it off. You need to relax and take a step back from this, as I can clearly see the thought has frustrated you.

I'm still interested to hear more of everyones' thoughts, this thread is still less than 24 hours old. Just keep things civil and remember that this is all still academic at this stage.