Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Egg Shen wrote:

Nemni wrote:We have a system where anyone can make enough money to get at least a few great items after playing awhile. That's a good thing imo, since I don't want a soulcrushing grind. But the remaining drops that are slightly better than what you can buy in a store need to remain rare. If they weren't, and we all got them, then what would be the point of ever looting anything again?

This is interesting. The snarky beast in me wants to suggest that with no reason for grinding, we might actually try something new...like role playing! Honestly, for those who love the grind from an OOC viewpoint, there will always be a reason to do so. If you perfect one character, well then you simply start another.

But it does bring up an issue which clever scripting and/or out-of-the-box thinking could solve. Currently, we have no serious gold sinks that have actual in-game meaning. I once played on a server where your kingdom relied on you for gold in order to function. For example, to get npc guards to protect your various territories the coffers needed a certain amount of gold. They could also be upgraded to be quite scary with even more gold. Those who donated the most gold would have titles as well. There were all sorts of systems tied into the acquisition of funds, so that even if you totally kitted out your character with epic equipment, there was still plenty of reason to adventure. (Rogues could steal from other treasuries as well, and add the funds to theirs )

maybe we can dream up some things like that which would fit the lore of our server? And if we did, then maybe we could aim for something under the two year mark to get a character outfitted with dream equipment, since there would still be a reason to grind (as we seem especially keen on protecting that particular play style).

I like the idea of owing a tax to the crown, so to speak. I do not know how complex a scripting job that would be, but it could be interesting. Think of how in Game of Thrones for instance, there are certain forests that you aren't allowed to just poach for free ( or at all in GoT's case). After-all, these adventurers (my own included) are taking precious treasure from the established government. I imagine the duke wouldn't be too happy about that, even if he appreciates them killing the "bad-guys" so to speak. Anyway, I think its a neat idea if nothing else.

metaquad4 wrote:--DM events require skill rolls and certain items can also enhance your "RP power". RP your character sheet requires certain level of skills and items as well (certain items do have both mechanical and RP value, and you can't RP an item that isn't there). Certain items also give unique abilities to your character, as listed either in their description or as feats.

I have been in DM events with a level 30, I have been in events with a level 5 and everything in between (though rarely). I posted a thank you not all that long ago for an event I was in where, after the event another player (IC'ly) tried to recruit my PC to go fight the Frost Giant King. This particular DM did a masterful job in this particular investigation event of rewarding the RP/thought process and not ONLY the skill rolls. Even though I was level 7 and several other players were epic, because my character was taking a different approach and I RP'd where he was walking, what he was looking for, etc. I was rewarded with more information. So my lowly level 7 Rogue was leading a bunch of epic PC's from Eastern Farmlands to Soubar and afterword was actually mistaken for being an epic character. You do not *need* items for RP power. You need a DM that rewards good ideas and good RP, not just stacked epic items to make your character have 30+ in every skill.

metaquad4 wrote:--Being a HiPsing character requires you have the highest tier of stealth loot, if you want to reliably play the spy or sneak role. Detectors gain a big advantage inherently, due to the way nwn2 handles stealth, so sneakers need those bonuses to get by.

Not really... The vast majority of 'detectors' only end up with ~40 spot unless they remove their 'adventuring' gear in favor of their 'spot' gear. So if you don't give them a reason to do so you won't have many issues with ~70 Hide/MS which does not require epic gear to attain.


I don't say any of this to be confrontational or to make those that think gold cost of epic items is unfair feel less. I say it because it is one thing to argue the mechanical side, but quite another to argue the RP side. RP has never required a max level PC or Epic gear and nothing has changed with the introduction of Epic shops. If you want to PvP with players that put 20 hours of grinding in per week to outfit their toons with epic gear in every slot plus wands/potions/clickies then yes, you are probably going to lose unless you also put in 20 hours of grinding per week to keep up with the arms race. If that isn't your bag there are PLENTY of players that enjoy conflict RP that also do not grind for more than an hour or so per week and their PC's might have 1-2 epic items and the rest are either store bought or found greater type items.

The simple fact is that making loot more rewarding will not 'fix' any of these issues. Those that grind for 20+ hours per week will ALWAYS have more than those that do not. Changing probabilities of epic loot will just mean they have a better chance to find some of the high epic items (some of which are still better than what's available in Avernus, at least when it comes to epic weapons). So what happens next? Do we then keep increasing it further and further? Doesn't seem like a sound reasoning to follow.

Let's start with what the desired result is and build from there. Is it fair to institute a system where "Grinders" are penalized for playing the way they enjoy? Does them having more stuff than "Non-Grinders" have a negative impact in game? It feels wrong to me to complain that "Joe has more stuff than me" when the reason is because Joe spent more time acquiring said stuff.

You can't go in to work and complain that your co-worker has a bigger paycheck if you both make the same money/hour and the co-worker puts more hours in. He put more time in, he gets more money... If someone puts all their time in to grinding, they are going to have more gold/interesting items. However, if you spent that same time RP'ing then you have more stories, so what's more important to you, as an individual?

All the examples of RP you listed one can still do without being decked out in epic items, metaquad4. Lacking items just means you are less likely to win certain encounters, so what you are really hindered from is RPing a char that is extremly competent at whatever they choose to do. Now obviously that's the sort of char many want to play, it's just human nature. But it is just as obvious that if getting items were easier, or if it didn't require any grinding at all, then everyone would have items of the same power. Your sneaker gear would be offset by the other players easily aquired detection gear, etc. And even then, if we all had epic items for no effort, still a lot of players would be cut off from "power RP" as this is just simply not a balanced game in any way. And there would be no mechanical reward for going out and slaying hard monsters. Sounds like a dull server to me.

Neither of my two primary characters has items exceeding 100k gp in total value, RP has not been hindered in the slightest, barely in the scope of PvP & PvE. If a player is only capable of roleplaying after 30 that reflects on the player not the module.

Nemni wrote:All the examples of RP you listed one can still do without being decked out in epic items, metaquad4. Lacking items just means you are less likely to win certain encounters, so what you are really hindered from is RPing a char that is extremly competent at whatever they choose to do. Now obviously that's the sort of char many want to play, it's just human nature. But it is just as obvious that if getting items were easier, or if it didn't require any grinding at all, then everyone would have items of the same power. Your sneaker gear would be offset by the other players easily aquired detection gear, etc. And even then, if we all had epic items for no effort, still a lot of players would be cut off from "power RP" as this is just simply not a balanced game in any way. And there would be no mechanical reward for going out and slaying hard monsters. Sounds like a dull server to me.

Spotting is an easier example: Plenty of types of characters can achieve high detection, simply through wands, spells, or feats. A sneaker requires 21 above what the spotter has, in order to remain undetected. Plus, it only takes one spotter (decked out in epic gear) in a group to notice a sneaker, not everyone needs to be a detector.

Specialization also nets its own rewards. DMs will reward you with more information and the like, players will come to you ICly if you become known as an expert. . .having a higher amount of RP power does come with a lot of IC perks, which is only natural.

Like I said. . .you *can* do certain things. But, you don't be as good at going them as the person who is decked out. I'm not saying you can or can't do certain things, I'm saying that being better at doing certain things garners major rewards, both RP and mechanically. And because grinding is required to get these items, there is very heavy incentive to do it. Its not a good or a bad thing. Well, on this server it could be a bad thing. Mostly because grinding is awesomely bad here.

Also, there is already no real reward for slaying hard monsters, as seen through the earlier parts of this conversation. They have the same chest drops that all the other mobs do. Risk vs Reward balance is utterly none existent, with regard to PvE. And yeah. . . because of that, hunting bosses is pretty dull. Its a longer and/or harder fight for little reward. You *know* you'll get little reward, but because you can only do chests once every few hours, you might as well pick those ones up too on the off chance that one might drop something half decent. Its kinda soul-wrenching, really.

Imo, all the bosses should be about the same difficulty as the white dragon, with varying strengths and weaknesses to exploit. But, they should all have a guaranteed epic-quality drop at the end of it as well, in addition to greater (+3 or equivalent) loot in the chests in their specific zone. That would be acceptable, to call it a "boss fight". That'd give a lot of risk, for a lot of reward. And you'll go into it knowing that if you beat it, you'll come out with something decent. Far less soul-wrenching than the current bosses.

Simple question: Can a level 30 naked wizard kill a level 30 decked out non-wizard? If the answer is yes at least 50% of the time then I don't think there is anything we can do to really balance things out.

Yes of course, but PvP was never meant to be balanced, what matters is PvE.

metaquad4 wrote:Also, there is already no real reward for slaying hard monsters, as seen through the earlier parts of this conversation. They have the same chest drops that all the other mobs do.

Please stop spreading fake news. Monsters don't drop "chest loot", they use the RIG, and the loot potential is very much dependent on the CR of the monster.

dedude wrote:

metaquad4 wrote:Also, there is already no real reward for slaying hard monsters, as seen through the earlier parts of this conversation. They have the same chest drops that all the other mobs do.

Please stop spreading fake news. Monsters don't drop "chest loot", they use the RIG, and the loot potential is very much dependent on the CR of the monster.

Right it is supposed to be that way. However bosses are not dropping anything other than potions, ales and more often only the gold they are supposed to have.

I mean one can say I am incredibly unlucky most likely but there was a time when I at least found the occasional item on a boss. Lately they have been rather oddly poor. Not sure what potential is for a CR 30+ monster solo but it seems off.

Sorry I tried to avoid this.

dedude wrote:

metaquad4 wrote:Also, there is already no real reward for slaying hard monsters, as seen through the earlier parts of this conversation. They have the same chest drops that all the other mobs do.

Please stop spreading fake news. Monsters don't drop "chest loot", they use the RIG, and the loot potential is very much dependent on the CR of the monster.

A) Bosses have chests in their area.
B) You are right. They don't have chest loot. Their loot is often worse.
C) How come bosses drop the same bullets as lower level mobs, then? Why aren't those results visible? Is the system really working in game?

Sorry for barging in, but can someone clarify what RIG means? Also, does bashing chests instead of pick locking have any effect on quality/quantity of loot?

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote:can someone clarify what RIG means?

Random Item Generator... In the past Chests pulled from the loot table while boss drops and bones/crates/what-have-you pulled from the RIG. Now chests pull from the loot table 75% of the time and the RIG 25%.

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote:, does bashing chests instead of pick locking have any effect on quality/quantity of loot?

No.

chad878262 wrote:

metaquad4 wrote:--Being a HiPsing character requires you have the highest tier of stealth loot, if you want to reliably play the spy or sneak role. Detectors gain a big advantage inherently, due to the way nwn2 handles stealth, so sneakers need those bonuses to get by.

Not really... The vast majority of 'detectors' only end up with ~40 spot unless they remove their 'adventuring' gear in favor of their 'spot' gear. So if you don't give them a reason to do so you won't have many issues with ~70 Hide/MS which does not require epic gear to attain.

I am just saying that my spot builds use 'spot' gear as adventuring gear, as most of my spot builds are some kind of a divine casters that enables them to use the otherwise 'horrible' spot gear.

Comments Only wrote:

chad878262 wrote:

metaquad4 wrote:--Being a HiPsing character requires you have the highest tier of stealth loot, if you want to reliably play the spy or sneak role. Detectors gain a big advantage inherently, due to the way nwn2 handles stealth, so sneakers need those bonuses to get by.

Not really... The vast majority of 'detectors' only end up with ~40 spot unless they remove their 'adventuring' gear in favor of their 'spot' gear. So if you don't give them a reason to do so you won't have many issues with ~70 Hide/MS which does not require epic gear to attain.

I am just saying that my spot builds use 'spot' gear as adventuring gear, as most of my spot builds are some kind of a divine casters that enables them to use the otherwise 'horrible' spot gear.

Like clerics and favored souls? For a second I thought you said they were diviners!

metaquad4 wrote:

dedude wrote:

metaquad4 wrote:Also, there is already no real reward for slaying hard monsters, as seen through the earlier parts of this conversation. They have the same chest drops that all the other mobs do.

Please stop spreading fake news. Monsters don't drop "chest loot", they use the RIG, and the loot potential is very much dependent on the CR of the monster.

A) Bosses have chests in their area.
B) You are right. They don't have chest loot. Their loot is often worse.
C) How come bosses drop the same bullets as lower level mobs, then? Why aren't those results visible? Is the system really working in game?

Question for you, where do the good items come from ?